Author Topic: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020  (Read 324197 times)

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Offline Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2500 on: February 13, 2020, 01:35:19 PM »
Your question was asking if they should ignore him. And they didn't.

I didn't follow the trial much- not that interested. Whether it was fair or whatever is open to debate, separately.

Not that interested in the trial (which was only going to have one outcome) is very different to whether or not you’re interested in whether the leader of your country engaged in illegal behaviour.

I don’t just mean you individually, I mean generally. To the extent that voters aren’t interested in whether the man in power has any sense of how public power differs from being the CEO of his own personal company kingdom, in a country that tells itself it was founded to escape personal tyranny, that’s downright scary.

Time and again Trump shows he doesn’t actually understand what being President MEANS in a system with separation of powers and rule of law. And the biggest problem is millions of Americans don’t understand either.

You have a narcissistic would-be king who becomes enraged the moment anyone crosses him. Be more worried.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:45:24 PM by Madiel »
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Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2501 on: February 13, 2020, 02:38:35 PM »
Not that interested in the trial (which was only going to have one outcome) is very different to whether or not you’re interested in whether the leader of your country engaged in illegal behaviour.

I don’t just mean you individually, I mean generally. To the extent that voters aren’t interested in whether the man in power has any sense of how public power differs from being the CEO of his own personal company kingdom, in a country that tells itself it was founded to escape personal tyranny, that’s downright scary.

Time and again Trump shows he doesn’t actually understand what being President MEANS in a system with separation of powers and rule of law. And the biggest problem is millions of Americans don’t understand either.

You have a narcissistic would-be king who becomes enraged the moment anyone crosses him. Be more worried.
Of course it's a problem if an illegal activity took place. But we don't know for sure, which was the purpose of the trial.

His attitude is problematic of course. But there is an order of concerns and that is secondary to other issues like people feeling like they are economically secure.

Even if he is doing something illegal and gets away with it, he is out in four years. Is there any effect where future presidents can get away with the same thing?

If he wanted to extend term limits... then that would be more of a concern than anything. But that's not gonna happen.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2502 on: February 13, 2020, 03:42:17 PM »
Read Mitt Romney. The evidence that Trump was placing conditions on funding for Ukraine that Congress had approved (so it’s not even his money to control), and that those conditions were focused on getting something on Biden, is overwhelming.

Much of the evidence was provided directly by the Trump administration BECAUSE he doesn’t understand that he’s not the CEO and that the money didn’t belong to him. He didn’t think he’d done anything wrong because he thought that as the man in charge he could do anything.

And that’s my point. Him trying to break the law would in some way be less scary than him not understanding that what he was doing was wrong.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2503 on: February 13, 2020, 03:55:25 PM »
I gather that at least some other Republicans agreed but baulked at removal from office as the punishment. It’s unfortunate that your system doesn’t provide a range of options, but then I’m not sure what other practically effective options there are.

Except for the next election. Which is why the sheer disinterest of many Americans is such an issue. But they don’t have much interest in the system in general, and happily elected someone from outside the system who kind of promised to wreck it for them.

To the extent that he’s drained the swamp I’d argue it’s only to replace it with something worse.
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Online SimonNZ

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2504 on: February 13, 2020, 03:58:42 PM »
"Drained the swamp into his cabinet", as Samantha Bee put it.

Your post also reminded me of this classic:


Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2505 on: February 13, 2020, 06:48:28 PM »
Of course it's a problem if an illegal activity took place. But we don't know for sure, which was the purpose of the trial.

We know, for sure; the GOP Senate was predetermined not to consider the evidence; that does not mean there was no evidence.  To the extent to which the Senate were goig tuo acquit the President no matter what, the trial was a mockery, a wing of the stinking cover-up.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:50:08 PM by k a rl h e nn i ng »
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Offline Herman

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2506 on: February 14, 2020, 12:49:13 AM »
Yeah, it's funny that in some cases people from Down Under seem to be more interested and better informed about US politics than some people in the US.

There is a justification. If Trump decides he's had enough and blows up the planet (just to see if the red button really works) people in New Zealand and Finland will notice, too.

More realistically, four more years of Trump will have disastrous effects on the environment globally. There is no dispute about that, unless you've got your head in the sand, which a lot of Trump voters do.

Greg if what is called a low-info voter (if he votes at all). Not being sure Trump committed counter-constitutional acts means you just haven't paid attention. The reason Trump wasn't convicted / removed from office is the majority in the Senate is beholden to Trump for reelection, not because of doubts about the facts, see Karl above.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 12:51:10 AM by Herman »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2507 on: February 14, 2020, 03:02:24 AM »
Breaking: Bernie Has Taken the Lead in Texas!

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4mjj-QuX7NI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4mjj-QuX7NI</a>
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Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2508 on: February 14, 2020, 11:09:39 AM »
Yeah, it's funny that in some cases people from Down Under seem to be more interested and better informed about US politics than some people in the US.

There is a justification. If Trump decides he's had enough and blows up the planet (just to see if the red button really works) people in New Zealand and Finland will notice, too.

More realistically, four more years of Trump will have disastrous effects on the environment globally. There is no dispute about that, unless you've got your head in the sand, which a lot of Trump voters do.

Greg if what is called a low-info voter (if he votes at all). Not being sure Trump committed counter-constitutional acts means you just haven't paid attention. The reason Trump wasn't convicted / removed from office is the majority in the Senate is beholden to Trump for reelection, not because of doubts about the facts, see Karl above.
I don't vote and I hate politics. I have more important things to work on so I don't go out of my way to pay attention to it.

You know there are other people out there who would disagree with whether Trump is guilty. Also I have an instinctual bullshit detector for people who are overly confident about stuff like this so if I did want to form an opinion about this I wouldn't listen to you or other people on here.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2509 on: February 14, 2020, 11:43:35 AM »
Nevada poll (finally):

Bernie Sanders 25 %
Joe Biden 18 %
Elizabeth Warren 13 %
Tom Steyer 11 %
Peter Buttigieg 10 %
Amy Klobuchar 10 %
Other/undecided 13 %

WPA Intelligence, moe 4.8 % pts
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2510 on: February 14, 2020, 11:55:24 AM »
I don't vote and I hate politics. I have more important things to work on so I don't go out of my way to pay attention to it.

You know there are other people out there who would disagree with whether Trump is guilty. Also I have an instinctual bullshit detector for people who are overly confident about stuff like this so if I did want to form an opinion about this I wouldn't listen to you or other people on here.

Given the leeway you lavish upon Trump, your "instinctual bullshit detector" ain't much.
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Offline Brewski

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2511 on: February 14, 2020, 12:15:30 PM »
I don't vote

Reading this makes me really sad.

--Bruce
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Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2512 on: February 14, 2020, 12:52:23 PM »
Given the leeway you lavish upon Trump, your "instinctual bullshit detector" ain't much.
I see going hardcore anti-Trump is actually the middle road, huh?  :D


Reading this makes me really sad.

--Bruce
I suspect not as much if otherwise I would have voted who the guy who isn't your guy.
(no idea who that is, just saying lol)
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Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2513 on: February 14, 2020, 01:01:50 PM »
Oh btw there's this channel I wanted to share with some other people that's just a hilarious parody channel of various political ideologies.

Not sure if this is a good place to share but whatever. It's only fun comedy stuff- not for education. This guy is really funny.

He has a video series of the four corners of the political compass (extremists) coming together to fight the evil Centrists.

https://www.youtube.com/user/flavacrava
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2514 on: February 14, 2020, 04:14:23 PM »
Reading this makes me really sad.

--Bruce

OTOH, given how he "pays attention" ....
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Offline Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2515 on: February 14, 2020, 05:29:06 PM »
I don't vote and I hate politics. I have more important things to work on so I don't go out of my way to pay attention to it.

You know there are other people out there who would disagree with whether Trump is guilty. Also I have an instinctual bullshit detector for people who are overly confident about stuff like this so if I did want to form an opinion about this I wouldn't listen to you or other people on here.

So, basically... you know nothing and don't want to, and then think that anyone who actually pays attention and tries to find out things is "overly confident".

Your celebration of ignorance is not impressive.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2516 on: February 14, 2020, 06:10:09 PM »
So, basically... you know nothing and don't want to, and then think that anyone who actually pays attention and tries to find out things is "overly confident".

Your celebration of ignorance is not impressive.

Know-nothingism is a big plus for Trumpkins.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2517 on: February 14, 2020, 08:43:14 PM »
Bill de Blasio to endorse Bernie Sanders.  0:)
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Offline greg

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2518 on: February 15, 2020, 01:50:38 PM »
So, basically... you know nothing and don't want to, and then think that anyone who actually pays attention and tries to find out things is "overly confident".

Your celebration of ignorance is not impressive.
Yeah, nice way of phrasing it to try to put me down.

Politics is not my area of focus. I don't have the time to spend on it.

A lot of people here I don't see actively trying to "find out things" but rather just spewing their perceptions whenever they get the chance. I believe a few pages back I was asking some questions. But then people quickly try to sell me on their opinions.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #2519 on: February 15, 2020, 03:54:06 PM »
I don't care that politics is not your area of focus. I care about your response to those for whom it IS an area of focus. Your objection to anyone actually having an opinion is frankly nonsense. What, we're all supposed to be vaguely non-committal for the sake of 'balance'?

You can argue why an opinion is wrong, but your supposed bullshit detector directed at ANYONE who reaches a firm conclusion is... well it's bullshit.

I work in the public service and live in the national capital, so what is going on in the political world is important. I don't go out of my way to specifically follow American politics, but we are one of your closest allies and what goes on over there is therefore widely reported in this country.

I don't reach a conclusion on everything, but as I've already said, the evidence that Trump put pressure on Ukraine is ample, not least because people Trump and Giuliani provided quite a bit of it. The evidence that Trump believes he is the CEO of America Inc. comes entirely from his own mouth and his own tweets. I don't have to engage in convoluted ideas or in any kind of partisan bias to talk about these things, I just have to pay attention.

And it's frankly ridiculous of you to believe that the only way to do things is to keep SUCH an open mind that everything falls out of it.
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