And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[71 dB]

Oligarchy Oligarchy Oligarchy Kyle Rocks Kyle Rocks Oligarch Oligarch Oligarch

Who's your favorite political commentator Karl? Who do you trust? Who do you respect? Someone working in a corporate media outlet earning millions every year talking in front of camera and telling how medicare for all is pie in the sky in between Aetna and Big Pharma adds?

[arpeggio]

Well the Trump thread has been locked down because of the hostility.  I wonder if this thread will be next.

[JBS]

Well the Trump thread has been locked down because of the hostility.  I wonder if this thread will be next.

Actually it might be time to close up this thread and start one devoted to the general election.

[Karl Henning]

Actually it might be time to close up this thread and start one devoted to the general election.

Good thought.

[71 dB]

Not a bad idea. You'll learn a lot more about the average American thinks than you will from Kulinski.

What average Americans think isn't automatically the truth or the most rational view of the thing. The Overton Window has moved right since the days of Seinfeld. I believe for profit healthcare was more affordable and the prices have gone up fast. If I am wrong about this someone can correct me. What I wish you had learned from me is Americans are more left-wing that they realize themselves or what the corporate media is willing to admit. People don't know labels well and many people who call themselves conservatives may have many left-wing opinions on economic issues. In some polls half of Republican voters have supported medicare for all and raising minimum wage to living wage polls around 80 % among Americans. Many Republican voters struggle economically and their conservatism is more about social issues: They are religious, oppose abortion and same sex marriage and so on. You tell me to learn things, but you show zero interest of learning anything yourself.

[FelixSkodi]

I'm not following then. I'll need you to explain.

If I'm not a troll, and Kyle's not a troll, then why don't you tell me who the troll is?!"

[JBS]

What average Americans think isn't automatically the truth or the most rational view of the thing. The Overton Window has moved right since the days of Seinfeld. I believe for profit healthcare was more affordable and the prices have gone up fast. If I am wrong about this someone can correct me. What I wish you had learned from me is Americans are more left-wing that they realize themselves or what the corporate media is willing to admit. People don't know labels well and many people who call themselves conservatives may have many left-wing opinions on economic issues. In some polls half of Republican voters have supported medicare for all and raising minimum wage to living wage polls around 80 % among Americans. Many Republican voters struggle economically and their conservatism is more about social issues: They are religious, oppose abortion and same sex marriage and so on. You tell me to learn things, but you show zero interest of learning anything yourself.

Imbibing false facts is not "learning".  If you ask people if they want free health care, or higher pay, of course they will say yes. But when you look at honest polls that point out the negatives (for instance, raising minimum wage means fewer jobs available and/or higher prices to consumers), the support falls.

The progressive agenda has lots of nice sounding ideas, but you need to learn about the negatives they entail.  Which you won't get from Kulinski.

[greg]

Seinfeld: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iV8X8ubGCc

Good stuff. 

[SimonNZ]

If I'm not a troll, and Kyle's not a troll, then why don't you tell me who the troll is?!"

I was saying 71db was trolling by tailoring his post to get a specific type of reaction. I still don't get how the ribbon thing relates.

[71 dB]

Imbibing false facts is not "learning".  If you ask people if they want free health care, or higher pay, of course they will say yes. But when you look at honest polls that point out the negatives (for instance, raising minimum wage means fewer jobs available and/or higher prices to consumers), the support falls.

The progressive agenda has lots of nice sounding ideas, but you need to learn about the negatives they entail.  Which you won't get from Kulinski.

Nordic countries suffer from these horrible negatives of social democratic ideas. It's so bad in here Nordic countries systematically rank very high in quality of living and happiness.  0:)

Higher wages increase purchasing power of regular people  = more jobs higher minimum wages don't really reduces jobs. It's a right wing lie, because the rich want to take home all the profits and give nothing to the workers.

[JBS]

Higher wages increase purchasing power of regular people  = more jobs higher minimum wages don't really reduces jobs. It's a right wing lie, because the rich want to take home all the profits and give nothing to the workers.

It's simple math.

If an employer pays higher wages, he can do one of three things:  hire fewer employees, raise the prices his customers pay, or  absorb the extra expense. Most employers are small and medium size businesses who aren't rich and can't afford to absorb the extra expense.

As I said, you aren't going to learn the negatives from Kulinski.

[JBS]

Increased profits usually meant that the workers got a larger share and their standard of living improved in general.

Except that for much of the last two decades, workers haven't been getting the profits.  71 dB does have a point.

[JBS]

Depends which country you are referencing.

The US
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

[JBS]

I don't think that is necessarily the fault of the market. Central bank, tax, trade and immigration policy all influence that.

The market is an abstract concept that refers to all the individual decisions sellers and buyers make. Policies are not, and to the degree thar they funnel assets to a certain segment, they distort the market.

[71 dB]

What JBS just said. Mandating higher wages will also raise the prices for goods and services, eroding the purchasing power and making the wage increase meaningless for most people.   
Economic history defies this. Increased profits usually meant that the workers got a larger share and their standard of living improved in general. Minimum wage laws have been shown to be counter productive, a market distortion that winds up hurting the low skilled the most. If you really love the poor don't embrace policies that only make them poorer and further disenfranchised.

Does stuff become free if people work without pay?
Of course not. Labor costs are only part of overal costs, profit margins etc.
That's why prices go up less than the purchasing power.

[71 dB]

Depends which country you are referencing.

In this  thread I am talking about US.

Except that for much of the last two decades, workers haven't been getting the profits.  71 dB does have a point.

Wages have stagnated for 40 years while productivity has skyrocketed. The oligarchs (the famous 1 %) took pretty much all the gains. If the minimum wage had gone up with productivity it would be at least $20 so in that sense the left demanding $15 living wage isn't unreasonable.

[André]

Which is why less government interference is usually better and in the end more equitable.

Except it's the opposite. When policies allow the funneling of assets on a one way track, the result is anything but equitable.

[JBS]

Except it's the opposite. When policies allow the funneling of assets on a one way track, the result is anything but equitable.

In fact, we're all saying the same thing. What Dowder calls government interference is those policies you and I refer to.
Even 71 dB agrees, although he puts it more dramatically when he talks about oligarchs and the 1%.  But it's those policies he's referring to.

[André]

In fact, we're all saying the same thing. What Dowder calls government interference is those policies you and I refer to.
Even 71 dB agrees, although he puts it more dramatically when he talks about oligarchs and the 1%.  But it's those policies he's referring to.

I get it. Thanks !

[JBS]

There is reason to believe Tara Reade...committed fraud, perjury, and possibly a few other things.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/21/tara-reade-biden-expert-testimony-274460