What are you listening 2 now?

Started by Gurn Blanston, September 23, 2019, 05:45:22 AM

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Mandryka

Quote from: mabuse on April 16, 2021, 08:06:21 AM
I think so, Mandryka  :D
It seems you are searching a specific rule witch doesn't exist... Sometimes the use of a language is hesitant.

...

Thanks to T.D. and you, this week I discovered this fascinating box:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26305.msg1350841.html#msg1350841


It's a gem!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: mabuse on April 16, 2021, 08:06:21 AM
I think so, Mandryka  :D
It seems you are searching a specific rule witch doesn't exist... Sometimes the use of a language is hesitant.

...

Thanks to T.D. and you, this week I discovered this fascinating box:
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26305.msg1350841.html#msg1350841

I haven't heard of any of those composers before now.  What's the music like?

And are the chickens yours?  :)

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

steve ridgway

Quote from: aligreto on April 16, 2021, 05:26:38 AM
The music of Varese is not all easy listening as I am sure you remember, Olivier. It can be hard work but I did like a lot of what I heard. I think that I will be in good hands with Chailly when I receive my new purchase.

The Chailly box gradually grew on me when it was the only classical music I had. I'm least keen on the version of Ameriques which didn't help with it being near the start.

pjme

#37943
Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2021, 08:37:19 AM
I was following you until I came to this little word.

OK. I'll try to translate quite literally "du Beethoven : de la musique de Beethoven, ça (cette sonate, ce quatuor) est de la musique composé par Beethoven. Donc, c'est du Beethoven. J'écoute souvent du Beethoven".

Some Beethoven: some music by Beethoven. That (that sonata, that quartet) is music composed by Beethoven. So (thus, and so), it is some Beethoven. I listen often to some Beethoven.

steve ridgway


Traverso

Richard Strauss

Eine Alpensinfonie


André

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2021, 01:44:46 AM
I'm not a native French speaker but I think Catalogue des oiseaux would translate as Catalogue of the birds, implying possession, ie the catalogue belongs to the birds --- an absurdity. Catalogue d'oiseaux otoh would translate as Catalogue of birds, implying birds are listed in the catalogue --- Messiaen's intention, obviously. And I also think d'oiseaux is a contraction of de oiseaux. Notice the difference between des and de.

I'm sure the native French speakers will clarify the issue.

Coming late to the debate  :).

You are right about both points: the absurdity of the birds possessing the catalogue + the implication that birds are listed - some of them, or any number arbitrarily chosen to be included.

Catalogue des oiseaux without any qualifier would also imply that it is a complete listing and, as Olivier has pointed out, it would have to be narrowed down, as a catalogue of all the birds is a virtual impossibility.

Compare this to the more simple case of a 'liste des tâches à accomplir' vs 'liste de tâches à accomplir': the first case would imply that these are all the tasks, no more, no less, that should be carried out. The second is a list of tasks to carry out among those listed, or there could be more to do, the list being more or less a guide. But these are picky distinctions and are open to discussion.

What is sure is, as you mentioned, that Messiaen's title in no way implied a totality, just a sample. And yes, d'oiseaux is the contraction of 'de oiseaux'. In French contractions are very common and always used for phonetic reasons: 'de oiseaux' or 'de les oiseaux' sounds awkward. 'D'oiseaux' or 'des oiseaux' is the correct form.

André


SonicMan46

Leclair, Jean-Marie (1697-1764) - Sonatas & Overtures, Op. 4 & 13 w/ the Purcell Quartet - although I own about a half dozen Leclair recordings, these Op. works are not in my collection - just excellent performances - reviews are attached for those interested; these were part of a newly arrived BRO order, which have two other CDs from this composer - next up!   Dave :)

 

Mandryka

Quote from: André on April 16, 2021, 11:41:24 AM


What is sure is, as you mentioned, that Messiaen's title in no way implied a totality, just a sample. And yes, d'oiseaux is the contraction of 'de oiseaux'. In French contractions are very common and always used for phonetic reasons: 'de oiseaux' or 'de les oiseaux' sounds awkward. 'D'oiseaux' or 'des oiseaux' is the correct form.

But oiseau doisn't begin with a vowel sound does it?.  Is it not /wazo/? You wouldn't write d'wagon! Or do you actually say the o in oi in some mysterious way?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

André

Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2021, 11:54:56 AM
But oiseau doisn't begin with a vowel sound does it?.  Is it not /wazo/? You wouldn't write d'wagon! Or do you actually say the o in oi in some mysterious way?

Not sure what you mean ? Contraction is always used when vowels happen to end and start two consecutive words. D'oiseaux, not 'de oiseaux'. 'L'animal', not 'le animal'. Unless the end vowel is a mute 'e'. But that's another story... ;)

Mandryka

#37951
Quote from: André on April 16, 2021, 12:01:32 PM
Not sure what you mean ? Contraction is always used when vowels happen to end and start two consecutive words. D'oiseaux, not 'de oiseaux'. 'L'animal', not 'le animal'. Unless the end vowel is a mute 'e'. But that's another story... ;)

What I mean is that although the spelling of oiseau starts with a vowel in the first syllable, the sound is a consonant (at least, to my English ears), so to me, for example, a liaison with in des oiseaux feels wrong (and that just shows that I can't speak French!) -- as wrong as a liaison with des wallons. The two words, wallons and oiseaux, seem to me to start with the same sound --/w/. 

Whenever I use the word oiseau I have a little mental jolt to remind myself about the liaison -- and a momentary loss of confidence! I avoid all discussions of birds and geese.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

ritter

#37952
To the ears of a Spaniard (fluent in French) like me, and I presume to anyone with a Romance language as mother tongue, oiseau definitely starts with a vowel. We Spaniards would transliterate it as "uasó" (even if the "soft s" sound does not exist in Spanish).

Mandryka

#37953
Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
To the ears of a Spaniard (fluent in French) like me, and I presume to anyone with a Romance language as mother tongue, oiseau definitely starts with a vowel. We Spaniards would transliterate it as "uasó" (even if the "soft s" sound does not exist in Spanish).

A French person once said that to me in fact, I just don't hear it!

The dictionaries, strangely, transliterate it with /w/

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/oiseau

https://www.cnrtl.fr/morphologie/oiseau
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Mandryka on April 15, 2021, 03:26:00 AM
It's like Brahms. Turning Beethoven's piano music into choral music produces something Brahmsian.

I hear that too. Reminds me of the German Requiem.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Mandryka

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2021, 12:46:55 PM
I hear that too. Reminds me of the German Requiem.

Sarge

Yes, exactly that.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

André

Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
To the ears of a Spaniard (fluent in French) like me, and I presume to anyone with a Romance language as mother tongue, oiseau definitely starts with a vowels. We Spaniards would transliterate it as "uasó" (even if the "soft s" sound does not exist in Spanish).

Yes.

Any two vowels sounded together are diphtong vowels: oi, ou, eu, oeu, ai, au, etc. They are simply modified vowels. As for wagons, it's pronounced as a 'v': vagons, not ouagons. Tricky, but every language has such quirks. In German, a 'v' is pronounced like an 'f', an s like a z.

So, back to Messiaen: de oiseaux would be two vowels sounded consecutively, which is a no no. Hence d'oiseaux'.

Wanderer

Quote from: Mandryka on April 16, 2021, 12:13:36 PM
...the sound is a consonant...

The sound is definitely not a consonant.

Quote from: ritter on April 16, 2021, 12:25:37 PM
To the ears of a Spaniard (fluent in French) like me, and I presume to anyone with a Romance language as mother tongue, oiseau definitely starts with a vowel. We Spaniards would transliterate it as "uasó" (even if the "soft s" sound does not exist in Spanish).

That's how it is perceived by Greek speakers, as well. And the s being between vowels, it is pronounced like a z.

Wanderer

Quote from: André on April 16, 2021, 01:00:58 PM
Yes.

Any two vowels sounded together are diphtong vowels: oi, ou, eu, oeu, ai, au, etc. They are simply modified vowels. As for wagons, it's pronounced as a 'v': vagons, not ouagons. Tricky, but every language has such quirks. In German, a 'v' is pronounced like an 'f', an s like a z.

So, back to Messiaen: de oiseaux would be two vowels sounded consecutively, which is a no no. Hence d'oiseaux'.

Exactly. And a famous line from "Friends" comes to mind: You Americans always butcher the French language!  ;D

André

Mandryka is right about one anomaly though: in French we pronounce ouallons and Ouallonnie, but vagons. And yet they are both written with the same letter, w (wallons, wagons). There is an historical reason for that. The letter W was the last integrated into our alphabet, sometime in the 18th century. Encyclopedists like Diderot and Trévoux state that W is not a French letter. It is used by Peoples of the North, and serves only to accommodate (transliterate) their names and some terms.

As a final comment on the subject, I will just mention that French has evolved from two very different language groups, with a clear 'border' separating them. Because of France's early political grouping of provinces and regions the language has combined the two in what is now modern French. Even today, some pronunciations are still clearly dictated by geography - hence the instantly recognizable provençal accent. Here is a map that shows the original language groups. There are two main ones: the langues d'oc (shades of green) in the South and the langues d'oïl (shades of blue) in the North.