Inattentive listening (again)

Started by Elgarian Redux, September 28, 2019, 12:12:47 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
In classical music the musician experiments in a concert. After some concerts, some experiments, some successes and some failures, he lays down his considered view in a recording. For that reason recordings are the primary musical experience, in some sense of primary at least, and why on the whole I value recordings more than I value concerts.

This strikes me as very, very odd coming from a committed HIP guy like you.

The way I see it, the ultimate, the nec plus ultra, the only genuine HIP experience would be to go back in time and hear the music literally like they were hearing it back then: quite possibly, and most probably, for the first and last time in their life. That one, single, once in a life time,  live performance which you could not compare with any other, because there would never be any other. I say, no recording, not even your favorite one, can give you even the slightest idea of that reality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm only too glad that we live in an era when they record everything composed and then some --- but I am convinced that the thrill we experience from listening to our favorite recording of any given piece of music is small beer compared to the thrill experienced by the audiences back then.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
Does anyone here listen inattentively in a concert, maybe read their twitter feed or text someone or whisper comments to the person next to them while it's going on?

I absolutely hate it when someone sitting next to me uses his mobile phone during a concert. The first thing I do after taking my seat in a concert hall is turning off my mobile phone.

I have no problem whatsoever with whispering comments within my hearing range, provided the comments are about the music and/or performance.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 28, 2019, 11:44:19 AM
In the understanding that we're all expressing opinions and or relating our experience, and that I find those which are at wide variance to my own of interest.

I'd say this is common understanding here, the very few exceptions notwithstanding.

QuoteIf one is the composer or performer, I can see caring deeply if the listener is not attentive.

Aria di sorbetto

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
In classical music the musician experiments in a concert. After some concerts, some experiments, some successes and some failures, he lays down his considered view in a recording.

That is not always the case.  Sviatoslav Richter hardly made any studio recordings, and his career was spent doing concerts and his recordings are live recordings, in general.  But I take your point, however, the public environment of a live concert is so drastically different and more highly charged than the private listening to a recording, I cannot even consider them remotely alike.

QuoteDoes anyone here listen inattentively in a concert, maybe read their twitter feed or text someone ... ?

IMO, that is extremely rude behavior, and not something I would like to witness or be subjected to.  A concert is really the only time I devote my entire attention to a classical music performance, and find it much more captivating and rewarding than listening to a recording.

Mandryka

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 28, 2019, 11:44:19 AM


But if I am neither the composer of the piece, nor a participant in the performance, why should I object, if the listener be inattentive?

This is very sensible I think. (I'm assuming it's rhetorical!)

Quote from: San Antone on September 28, 2019, 12:22:41 PM

IMO, that is extremely rude behavior, and not something I would like to witness or be subjected to.  A concert is really the only time I devote my entire attention to a classical music performance, and find it much more captivating and rewarding than listening to a recording.

I've started to do something in concerts which may be bad form. I don't wear a watch any more, and I like to know how much time has elapsed, how long before the interval or the end. So I tend to hold my phone and glance at it.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 12:36:00 PM
I like to know how much time has elapsed, how long before the interval or the end.

In other words, the music itself is of lesser interest to you than the intervals, or the end of it all.  ;D

QuoteI tend to hold my phone and glance at it.

Next time you do just that, please be aware that I'd mentally curse you were I your neighbour.  ;D

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Elgarian Redux

#27
Quote from: Florestan on September 28, 2019, 01:33:20 AM
As for Wagner, you could apply another one of my ideas: discard any music which doesn't lend itself to inattentive listening.  ;D
Well that would go a bit too far, for me. I'm not advocating inattentive listening as a substitute for attentive listening (as I think one or two posters seem to be assuming), but an an extra tool in the listening toolkit. I am of course taking the unashamed view that the listener has the last word on how he chooses to listen on any particular occasion.

I'd like to restate how I came to this: I found that I was not listening to classical music at all, in recent months. I was listening to silence as the obvious alternative. Seems to me that inattentive listening provides a more musical and sometimes more helpful alternative than silence. There is, surely, no intent to disrespect the composer. I love the paintings on my walls, and pay very close attention to them for short times, on most days. The fact that most of the time I am conscious of them only vaguely, (though they're still having an important influence on my subconscious) implies no disrespect.

Neither am I implying that this practice would suit anyone else apart from Florestan. I've no idea. I'm just the messenger, reporting on his recent experiences.

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 28, 2019, 03:58:36 AM
Alan! Great to see you!
Karl, you old pirate! Glad to see you too, and I hope all's well.

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: Iota on September 28, 2019, 08:13:22 AM
Though I have a feeling that for certain kinds of brains (not mine), oblique listening may reveal things that conscious listening doesn't pick up.

That has sometimes happened, albeit in a rather crude way. Handel re-used tunes from his cantatas in his chamber music (or was it the other way round), and on several occasions it brought a curious smile as my inattentive ear picked up a tune that I subconsciously recognised from elsewhere.

Marc

As organist Peter Westerbrink (and quite a few others) expressed once in a while before an organ concert, the concert in 17th/18th century was, for a great part, a social experience. For instance, when Sweelinck played his organ, people were walking up and down the church, talking with each other about personal, religious, social and business matters. From time to time they fell silent of course, because of the beautiful things they heard.
Sometimes Westerbrink invited us to walk around and look around, without the talking though, to not annoy the very attentive listeners. ;)

Haydn had to wake up his audience, or have them pay more attention, with his 'Suprise' symphony and other musical jokes. People were either drinking coffee or other stuff, or chatting, or even sleeping.

The idea that all 'classical' music was only written for very attentive listening is, in my humble opinion, not correct.

It wouldn't surprise if that the 'strictly attentive listening' idea kinda started to gain ground during the romantic arrea, where the artist was almost considered as someone who was connected to the Gods of the outer world(s), and therefore the 'common' down-to-earth listener did best to remain respectfully silent and pay the deepest attention (or at least fake it).

This is an interesting thread, but, again in my humble opinion, not a subject of 'definitions' and 'rules'. Especially not when listening/hearing at home.
Anyone who likes his Bach as background music whilst reading, doing the dishes or having a nice chat with someone else: be my guest.

For myself: the most rewarding way of hearing music is listening very attentively. Just wanted to make that sure. ;)

This evening I listened live to Bach's Great Organ Mass in the Groningen Martinikerk... that was a very attentive and extremely rewarding experience. Just WOW.

Florestan

Quote from: Elgarian Redux on September 28, 2019, 01:02:35 PM
I'm not advocating inattentive listening as a substitute for attentive listening, but as an extra tool in the listening toolkit

I'd say, not extra but on a par with.


QuoteI am of course taking the unashamed view that the listener has the last word on how he chooses to listen on any particular occasion.

I'm taking the same view, thank you.

QuoteI'd like to restate how I came to this: I found that I was not listening to classical music at all, in recent months. I was listening to silence as the obvious alternative. Seems to me that inattentive listening provides a more musical and sometimes more helpful alternative than silence. There is, surely, no intent to disrespect the composer. I love the paintings on my walls, and pay very close attention to them for short times, on most days. The fact that most of the time I am conscious of them only vaguely, (though they're still having an important influence on my subconscious) implies no disrespect.

Neither am I implying that this practice would suit anyone else apart from Florestan.

Well, I have never thought or implied that my own thinking is the universal yardstick by which all others must be measured.

From childhood's hour I have not been
As others were—I have not seen
As others saw—I could not bring
My passions from a common spring—
From the same source I have not taken
My sorrow—I could not awaken
My heart to joy at the same tone—
And all I lov'd—I lov'd alone


Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Elgarian Redux

Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2019, 01:11:42 PM
The idea that all 'classical' music was only written for very attentive listening is, in my humble opinion, not correct.

Yes. Not a matter of opinion though. I believe your statement is a pretty accurate description of historical fact.

Florestan

Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2019, 01:11:42 PM
The idea that all 'classical' music was only written for very attentive listening is, in my humble opinion, not correct.

+ 1. It's not only not correct --- it's downright false.

QuoteIt wouldn't surprise if that the 'strictly attentive listening' idea kinda started to gain ground during the romantic arrea, where the artist was almost considered as someone who was connected to the Gods of the outer world(s), and therefore the 'common' down-to-earth listener did best to remain respectfully silent and pay the deepest attention (or at least fake it).

Romanticism is responsible for some of the greatest music ever penned --- and also for some of the most far-fetched and pernicious ideas ever penned.

QuoteAnyone who likes his Bach as background music whilst reading, doing the dishes or having a nice chat with someone else: be my guest.

This is the mark of a truly liberal mindset.  8)

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Marc

#34
Quote from: Florestan on September 28, 2019, 01:25:57 PM
+ 1. It's not only not correct --- it's downright false.

Romanticism is responsible for some of the greatest music ever penned --- and also for some of the most far-fetched and pernicious ideas ever penned.

This is the mark of a truly liberal mindset.  8)

I sometimes do listen to Bach too whilst doing the dishes, you know: shake my booty and wave me arms on Brandenburg No. 2... and then break another (not so) expensive plate or glass.

I.c. romanticism: I listened a lot to Chopin this week, mostly before going to sleep. A mixture between attentive and inattentive listening. I don't feel bad about myself when I fall asleep whilst Vlado Perlemuter is playing the Berceuse.

Florestan

Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
I sometimes do listen to Bach too whilst doing the dishes, you know: shake my booty and wave me arms on Brandenburg No. 2... and then break another (not so) expensive plate or glass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Zimmermann

I'd have a pint of beer for starters, danke schoen!
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini


Florestan

Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
I listened a lot to Chopin this week, mostly before going to sleep. A mixture between attentive and inattentive listening.

That's precisely how I listen to my Chopin every week.  :D

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 28, 2019, 11:33:12 AM
In classical music the musician experiments in a concert. After some concerts, some experiments, some successes and some failures, he lays down his considered view in a recording. For that reason recordings are the primary musical experience, in some sense of primary at least, and why on the whole I value recordings more than I value concerts.

I agree completely with this. You have a very strong point there.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Florestan

Quote from: Marc on September 28, 2019, 01:44:17 PM
"Schweigt stille, plaudert nicht!"

"Ich denke was ich will und was mich beglücket,
doch alles in der Still', und wie es sich schicket.
Mein Wunsch und Begehren kann niemand verwehren,
es bleibet dabei: Die Gedanken sind frei!"

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini