Inattentive listening (again)

[prémont]

If one is the composer or performer, I can see caring deeply if the listener is not attentive. One may or may not, in the event, care, but I see one's vested interest.

When I listen to your St.John's passion, a work I really love, I always listen attentively. If I read something while listening, it is the score.

[Marc]

In 1888, the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam was also built as a mixture of a concert hall and a café, with tables, chairs, coffee, cake, waiters and there was quite some talking during the concerts.
Conductor Willem Kes didn't like that. In 1893 the tables and chairs disappeared, and also the waiters, coffee and cake.
According to Kes, classical music was a higher art, to be experienced in respectful silence.

[prémont]

The way I see it, the ultimate, the nec plus ultra, the only genuine HIP experience would be to go back in time and hear the music literally like they were hearing it back then: quite possibly, and most probably, for the first and last time in their life. That one, single, once in a life time,  live performance which you could not compare with any other, because there would never be any other. I say, no recording, not even your favorite one, can give you even the slightest idea of that reality.

Since long I have suspected, that you completely misunderstood the purpose of HIP, and now I see it clearly.

[prémont]

How about Handel's Water Music or Fire Works, which are actually background music in all but name? How about Mozart's serenades and cassations which were written for specific occasions involving general merriment, booze included? How about Strauss'waltzes, polkas and quadrilles which were written specifically to be danced to? By your token, they are not music. 

Water music and Fireworks music are too good to be reduced to background music. I am happy to have the option to listen to these works without doing anything else.
Dance music is another matter. Some of it is very good and may serve as listening music.

[Marc]

When I listen to your St.John's passion, a work I really love, I always listen attentively. If I read something while listening, it is the score.

Not everyone who loves (classical) music has got the background/skills to do that.
I have the 'Klavierauszüge' of Bach's passions and other choral works, and sometimes reading that whilst listening adds to the wonderment and emotion. But it can also be a distraction.

[Florestan]

Since long I have suspected, that you completely misunderstood the purpose of HIP, and now I see it clearly.

Okay. Here is your only chance to enlighten me, once and for all, as to what is the purpose of HIP. Be careful of what you write, everything can be used against you. 

[prémont]

That is not always the case.  Sviatoslav Richter hardly made any studio recordings,

This is about studio recordings, so Richter does not qualify that much.

[Florestan]

Water music and Fireworks music are too good to be reduced to background music.

For you, today, as influenced by more than a century of romantic/Romantic thinking and feeling. I''m sure that for Handel himself back then it was simply a matter of pleasing his royal patron.

[Marc]

Okay. Here is your only chance to enlighten me, once and for all, as to what is the purpose of HIP. Be careful of what you write, everything can be used against you. 

What you propose as ultimate HIP for the 20th/21st century just won't happen. Because we can always make a recording of the concert and relive it.
HIP tries to understand and recover the original sound and way of performing, and, if possible, the original meaning/background. It tries to be 'only' historically informed. That's something different than make the experience historically 100% correct, as if the listener steps into a time machine and travels back to 1727, becomes an 18th century Lutheran and hears the first version of Bach's Matthäus-Passion.

[prémont]

Not everyone who loves (classical) music has got the background/skills to do that.
I have the 'Klavierauszüge' of Bach's passions and other choral works, and sometimes reading that whilst listening adds to the wonderment and emotion. But it can also be a distraction.

Yes, I know, if so they just should close their eyes and listen. Henning's St, John's passion will do the rest.

Of course I do not always read the score while listening, because it may be a distraction. But one can listen in more ways, either analytical or emotional.

[prémont]

What you propose as ultimate HIP for the 20th/21st century just won't happen. Because we can always make a recording of the concert and relive it.
HIP tries to understand and recover the original sound and way of performing, and, if possible, the original meaning/background. It tries to be 'only' historically informed. That's something different than make the experience historically 100% correct, as if the listener steps into a time machine and travels back to 1727, becomes an 18th century Lutheran and hears the first version of Bach's Matthäus-Passion.

Thanks, you said it better than I would be able to (considering my skill in English).

[Marc]

For you, today, as influenced by more than a century of romantic/Romantic thinking and feeling. I''m sure that for Handel himself back then it was simply a matter of pleasing his royal patron.

And when the patron liked good music, the music had better be good. Handel for sure didn't want to see his patron yawn, then order a pint and shout "where are the pretty gals?"

[prémont]

For you, today, as influenced by more than a century of romantic/Romantic thinking and feeling.....

What the f**k do you know about this?

[Florestan]

What the f**k do you know about this?

I could ask you the same.

[Marc]

Thanks, you said it better than I would be able to (considering my skill in English).

Well, I'm kinda in the center in this 'argument', because I'm fine with people who listen to good music as background. During university years, I knew this kind girl who loved Mozart piano concertos, especially because it made her concentrate better whilst reading her books and study material. How could I condemn that?
To me, there just are no rules in hearing/listening/experiencing music. I also know people who meditate on classical music. Others use it to fall asleep. And some listen to it with the score on their lap. Others dance in their own room, both on fast and slow movements. As I said before: all fine to me.

I've done it all, too. But studying whilst listening to music that I really like: that was too difficult for me. I got distracted by the music. So I went to the library. (This was all long before the mobile phone and mp3 area... even headphones were not allowed in those days.)
But at my work, I sometimes put headphones on with good music. No other noise from outside, and then it can work really well.

[San Antone]

This is about studio recordings, so Richter does not qualify that much.

But why wouldn't/couldn't you listen attentively to a live recording? 

I agree that studio recordings can contain some remarkable performances, and there was a time when I would devote time to listening to them very closely and even compare several recordings of the same work against each other (I've posted about my Liszt B Minor Sonata project).  And I am certainly not arguing against attentive listening; it is what the artist hopes his recording will receive.  In fact, I am somewhat in awe of GMG members who are able to retain memories of recordings so vividly that they can comment on them comparatively.  I could never do that.

Nowadays I find that I am less interested in comparing recordings and enjoy more having the music playing in the background. 

[prémont]

I could ask you the same.

I do not know how much you are influenced by more than a century of romantic/Romantic thinking and feeling. So I don't question it.

[prémont]

But why wouldn't/couldn't you listen attentively to a live recording? 

I agree that studio recordings can contain some remarkable performances, and there was a time when I would devote time to listening to them very closely and even compare several recordings of the same work against each other (I've posted about my Liszt B Minor Sonata project).  And I am certainly not arguing against attentive listening; it is what the artist hopes his recording will receive.  In fact, I am somewhat in awe of GMG members who are able to retain memories of recordings so vividly that they can comment on them comparatively.  I could never do that.

Nowadays I find that I am less interested in comparing recordings and enjoy more having the music playing in the background.

Of course one can listen attentively to a live recording. Sometimes it pays, and I agree that some of Richter's live recordings are remarkable. But generally I find studio recordings more rewarding.

I do not compare recordings that often, finding that it detracts from enjoying the recording I actually listen to. But to get the full enjoyment of a recording - and this is what I want (who knows if I live long enough to hear it again) - I have to listen attentively.

[Florestan]

What you propose as ultimate HIP for the 20th/21st century just won't happen.

I proposed nothing. I clearly stated ""it would be".

Because we can always make a recording of the concert and relive it.

Of course. My point is, though, that we do not have, nor can we make, a recording of, say, Mozart playing his C-minor Concerto.

HIP tries to understand and recover the original sound

The original sound is very easy to recover. Use period instruments, period. (pun)

and way of performing, and, if possible, the original meaning/background.

Yes, precisely. That is the crux of the matter. The original meaning/background is forever lost to us. See below.

It tries to be 'only' historically informed. That's something different than make the experience historically 100% correct, as if the listener steps into a time machine and travels back to 1727, becomes an 18th century Lutheran and hears the first version of Bach's Matthäus-Passion.

But, good God, that's exactly the audience Bach wrote his sacred cantatas for: 18th century devout, Sunday-church-going Lutherans. Do you really think he wrote them for any other purpose, like for instance for them to be listened to by atheists, for purely aesthetic pleasure, in the privacy of their homes?

[Florestan]

I do not know how much you are influenced by more than a century of romantic/Romantic thinking and feeling.

Then you must be the only GMG-er who doesn't know I'm an avowed and unabashed Romantic/romantic.