Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[BachQ]

Who is Graun?

According to The New Grove Dictionary of Opera (vol. 2 p.519) Graun "is considered to be the most important German composer of Italian opera of his time."  Graun wrote a number of operas. His opera Cleopatra e Cesare inaugurated the opening of the Berlin opera house in 1742 . Others, such as Montezuma (1755), with a libretto by King Frederick. None of his pieces are often performed today, though his passion Der Tod Jesu (The Death of Jesus, 1755) was frequently given in Germany for many years after his death. His other works include concertos and trio sonatas.

[(poco) Sforzando]

cool josquin....and yeah, the revival brought jsb to the masses....but he was always very well known and deeply revered by serious musicians and fine connessuirs of the art. (this includes of course, all the great masters to come down the pipe after his time). this is all obvious stuff anyway, and shouldn't even have to be pointed out...

Nah, it's just brainwashing.

[lukeottevanger]

Hey, this old thread again? Might as well contribute a line from Bartok - who ought to know what he's talking about - which I think well worth taking time to consider:

For the future development of music Liszt's oeuvre seems to me of far greater importance than that of Strauss or even Wagner.[/i]

[marvinbrown]

Hey, this old thread again? Might as well contribute a line from Bartok - who ought to know what he's talking about - which I think well worth taking time to consider:

For the future development of music Liszt's oeuvre seems to me of far greater importance than that of Strauss or even Wagner.

 




Personally I have no problem whatsoever with Bartok's line.  Liszt and Wagner are inseparable as far as I am concerned.  They both come from the same school of thought and had every intention of revolutionizing music after Beethoven. 

  marvin

[MN Dave]

Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

I think it was Hank Williams.  0:)

[drogulus]

You miss my point, to wit: there probably wouldn't have been a Tristan if Wagner hadn't been influenced by Weber or Mozart. He wasn't sui generis. I'm not denigrating Wagner because the same is true of anyone else in the music business. I was and am supporting my argument that influences are longstanding and often subtle, so claiming someone to be "most influential" is a futile exercise.

     I wonder.....which dinosaur was the most influential? Which microbe? If we pull on this string eventually we'll come back to the most influential molecule. But why stop there?

    Seriously, causation of this sort is a web and not a string. I went to see a performance of Schütz and I was amazed at how much it sounded like Brahms at some points. Did Brahms study Schütz or was there an intermediary? Perhaps both direct and indirect influence was responsible. Combine that with the lateral influence of contemporaries and this gets complicated. All attempts to quantify these various influences will founder on the grounds that another equally justifiable weighting could be adopted.

    Then there's the matter of the relative weight to be given to discovery versus successful exploitation. We care more about the first great opera than the first opera. Innovation can't be just who did what first, it has to be who first did something notable with it.

[lukeottevanger]

Did Brahms study Schütz ....

Yes, very closely!

[BachQ]

I'm not certain as to Wagner as "Greatest Influence..." etc. I do tend to doubt whether modern cinematic soundtracks would be much as they are without his having existed.

This is coming from a man whom has relatively recently been devastated by Wagner's music on a very deep level.

Andy, you've made Wagner your avatar!  You must really be smitten!

Which operas have you been indulging in?

[Haffner]

Andy, you've made Wagner your avatar!  You must really be smitten!

Which operas have you been indulging in?

The Ring: Levine's dvd; the Krauss full set <thanks to Sean!>; the Karajan Walkure (thanks to Varg); and the (penultimate) Solti Rheingold and (slightly less penultimate) Walkure.

Tristan und Isolde (the Furtwangler and Kleiber sets)

Have the Jerusalem dvd of Parsifal coming in by Friday! Very excited.

I have been Rhapsody-sampling the Hans Knappertsbusch Parsifal and am completely crazy about that music drama already.

[marvinbrown]

Andy, you've made Wagner your avatar!  You must really be smitten!

  Welcome aboard the Wagner  train Andy!   Andy I see your Wagner opera recordings have grown in number  .  Have you decided which Siegfried you are going to buy? Also I am not sure which Knappertsbusch you are sampling but make sure you check out the 1962 recording at Bayreuth! 

  marvin

 

[knight66]

Now that's ENOUGH! He already has a fever, no need to fan it into something life threatening.

Mike

[EmpNapoleon]

If there even was a way to accurately evaluate influence regarding Western music, who cares if Wagner is rated the greatest?  There are many other powerful influences.  What will change? 

And what is the "state" of Western music today?  What does Wagner have to do with 2pac?  Maybe the latter will outlast the former (lol).

Ask not what Wagner has done with "Western music," just listen and love his music, if you do.  The thought of him being the greatest makes his image more alluring for some poeple, I know.

[Haffner]

  Welcome aboard the Wagner  train Andy!   Andy I see your Wagner opera recordings have grown in number  .  Have you decided which Siegfried you are going to buy? Also I am not sure which Knappertsbusch you are sampling but make sure you check out the 1962 recording at Bayreuth! 

  marvin

 

Hi Marvin!

The effect of Wagner's Ring cycle took a full 9 months to take a profound effect on me. Once it did, it hit hard.

I'll have the Solti Siegfried in a couple of weeks, and I'm very excited for it. I really enjoyed the Levine DvD, but the Siegfried there just overall doesn't make it for me. I contacted James Morris' publicity agent, whom wrote me today expressing interest in my Metal Opera. James would be the perfect baritone for my composition-in-progress. So that's exciting for me!

Still checking out this 'un:

[marvinbrown]

Now that's ENOUGH! He already has a fever, no need to fan it into something life threatening.

Mike

  Mike with Wagner the fever can never reach high enough for it to be life threatening- the body always adjusts and adapts to lust for more  !  Let's turn up the heat shall we  0:) ?? I am sure Andy will be just fine!

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

Hi Marvin!

The effect of Wagner's Ring cycle took a full 9 months to take a profound effect on me. Once it did, it hit hard.

I'll have the Solti Siegfried in a couple of weeks, and I'm very excited for it. I really enjoyed the Levine DvD, but the Siegfried there just overall doesn't make it for me. I contacted James Morris' publicity agent, whom wrote me today expressing interest in my Metal Opera. James would be the perfect baritone for my composition-in-progress. So that's exciting for me!

Still checking out this 'un:

  Good luck with your music Andy.  I hope everything works out well for you  !  By the way that Parsifal Knapp 1962 that you are still checking out is a gem  0:).

  marvin

[Haffner]

  Mike with Wagner the fever can never reach high enough for it to be life threatening- the body always adjusts and adapts to lust for more  !  Let's turn up the heat shall we  0:) ?? I am sure Andy will be just fine!

  marvin

Yes, I'm still staying eclectic in my listening tastes...hell, I ordered Strauss' Elektra yesterday (laughing)!

[Saul]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool and has no clue about what great composers and great music is all about.

[PSmith08]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool and has no clue about what great composers and great music is all about.

Yeah, that's a minority position. As much fun as the "Reformation" Symphony is, composed to celebrate the Augsburg Confession of Martin Luther, by the way, it holds not even a candle to Der Ring des Nibelungen or Parsifal.

[Danny]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool and has no clue about what great composers and great music is all about.

I hear Theodor Herzl rated Herr Wagner higher.

[Haffner]

Anyone that puts Wagner before Mendelssohn in terms of influence or quality of music or Genius, is a fool and has no clue about what great composers and great music is all about.

Yeah!