Contemporary queer composers

[some guy]

No, on the contrary, but let's not let this turn this into a semantic thread, I'll answer you straight away in Cato's Grammar Grumble.

Does the thread use words? Then it's already a "semantic thread." No turning into.

[Mandryka]

That's like saying it's a geometric thread because the letters have a shape.

[dissily Mordentroge]

My interest in this started after a discussion about Eastman with a composer. He said that he thought that Eastman's music was prescient of a significant trend in contemporary music, a quasi romantic trend where the composer's work is not only informed by the beliefs and values and passions which constitute his identity, but also militates for them.

When I asked for contemporary composers who use their music to militate for queerness, I didn't get a clear answer. I was pleased to be reminded this morning that Finnissy talks in militant terms though.

Having lurched out of the closet at age 16 and now a crotchety old 73 I've never taken offence at being called 'queer' given my early aversion to just about everything 'normal' from political leanings to music. I'm only offended if someone calls me stupid or dishonest.  "You a queer, gay, fag, fairy?"  etc usually gets a response along the lines of "Why, you looking for a bit" or "Yeh, and what are you going to do about it" or some such. Needless to say an early involvement in the martial arts always came in handy.
As to queer composers/musicians the majority who are out of the closet aren't classical artists. Same for a range of more or less radical political statements, the classical music world has tended to brush queerness under the carpet or disguise it in peculiar ways such as the casting of Richard Strauss's 'Der Rosenkavalier'.

[Mandryka]

https://www.youtube.com/v/F_MPk_2Uvx8

The first part Finnissy's Other Ground is expressive in an old fashioned sort of way -- think Elgar (without the orchestra in Gerontius)  and maybe Britten (De Vere tormented by the weight of his moral decision . . . )  -- and about someone riddled with angst because he's got AIDS. The monologue is by turns poignant, by turns aggressively, militantly, queer, by turns "mystical" (a la Jonathan Harvey).  I found it quite disturbing because it brought back memories of people long dead now . . . 

Half way through the style becomes more authentically modern -- this is a common trope in Finnissy!

[Mandryka]

Arguably no longer contemporary, but nevertheless I would say that there's enough frank and mature and authentic lesbian content in Danses Organiques to make it deserve a place in this thread. Or is it pornographic?




Luc Ferrari was a man, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from that.

The subtitle of the piece is Cinéma pour les oreilles, and that seems spot on. Indeed listening to some of the raunchier bits in the second half makes me wonder why the genre hasn't been developed, why creative people haven't worked more on musique cul.

The final section, #6, is the musical equivalent of the end of Ulysses.

[FelixSkodi]

Kaki King
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2p_6lFlasA

Eve Beglarian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2098LqX1e54

[Mandryka]

https://www.youtube.com/v/FvBP5hXO128&ab_channel=AndrewToovey


Andrew Toovey's First Out, named after the cafe on Tottenham Court Road



And Queer Sensibility, written for the AIDS doctor Joseph Sonnabend

https://www.youtube.com/v/6G118nrQJvA&ab_channel=AndrewToovey

[Mandryka]

https://www.newworldrecords.org/products/lesbian-american-composers?_pos=1&_sid=d21037c83&_ss=r&variant=32449362329679

Enjoying this anthology.

[krummholz]

No. Queer is quite offensive. So is using the n-word.

Though for "queer", and to some extent I believe for the n-word, it depends on who utters it, and in what context. "Queer" is a strongly reclaimed word in some communities.

Also, in today's queer communities, and despite its history, "queer" is no longer an EXACT synonym for "gay". Particularly in conjunction with the modifier "gender" (as in "genderqueer") it connotes, additionally or by itself, a nonconforming or even non-binary gender expression.

[MusicTurner]

(...)

Also, in today's queer communities, and despite its history, "queer" is no longer an EXACT synonym for "gay". Particularly in conjunction with the modifier "gender" (as in "genderqueer") it connotes, additionally or by itself, a nonconforming or even non-binary gender expression.

Indeed. Danish 'Bisse' (progressive rock) is one, typical example, of this 'playing with identities'. Your picture search function will provide illustrations. He is a talented musician and writer, btw ('Højlandet','Grand Danois' etc)

[Mirror Image]

I don't get this thread. Many composers were/are homosexual, why do they need their own dedicated thread? Not only that, but someone's sexual orientation is really no one's business and this thread, if anything, directly insults these composers. I believe this thread should be deleted or locked.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't get this thread. Many composers were/are homosexual, why do they need their own dedicated thread? Not only that, but someone's sexual orientation is really no one's business and this thread, if anything, directly insults these composers. I believe this thread should be deleted or locked.

Actually, I find the content rather more educational than prurient or offensive in other ways. If these people weren't already open about their otherness, they wouldn't enter discussion here in any case. I trust that people will be posting things about which they have knowledge, not a series of speculations about some person's sexual identity.

Not speaking for all the Mods, of course, but I think that NOT suppressing constructive discussion of topics which have previously been taboo will serve to make them less mysterious and correlatively less scary.

GB 

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

I would like a thread for alcoholic composers as well. 

[Gurn Blanston]

I would like a thread for alcoholic composers as well. 

NO! Now they are quick to take offense....   

[Mandryka]

I don't get this thread. Many composers were/are homosexual, why do they need their own dedicated thread? Not only that, but someone's sexual orientation is really no one's business and this thread, if anything, directly insults these composers. I believe this thread should be deleted or locked.

I know where you're coming from, and I never intended this thread to be a list of homosexual composers, just because that wouldn't interest me personally. I intended it to be an exploration of queer composers - composers whose music can be interpreted as a celebration and revindication of a distinctively homosexual sensibility and way of being. I started it after having a discussion with a queer composer here in London about Julius Eastman and John Cage and Benjamin Britten - he argued that Eastman was queer while Cage and Britten just happened to be  gay. I don't say my friend was right, but I think his point of view is interesting enough to explore.

In fact, that CD I posted yesterday, Lesbian American Composers, seems to me to contain quite a lot of queer composers. I've just started to explore its companion recording

[foxandpeng]

Though for "queer", and to some extent I believe for the n-word, it depends on who utters it, and in what context. "Queer" is a strongly reclaimed word in some communities.

Also, in today's queer communities, and despite its history, "queer" is no longer an EXACT synonym for "gay". Particularly in conjunction with the modifier "gender" (as in "genderqueer") it connotes, additionally or by itself, a nonconforming or even non-binary gender expression.

I think this is an important distinction. There is a real difference between gay and queer, the latter term being far more politically charged and describing something other than mere orientation (as per Judith/Jack Halberstam, Judith Butler, et al).

I don't get this thread. Many composers were/are homosexual, why do they need their own dedicated thread?

I have no issue with composers/artists celebrating their identity through their music (not suggesting you do either ), and staking their right to existence and marking their contribution. I am somewhat ambivalent to the gender/orientation/colour/racial background/age/physical or mental disability/religion/politics/worldview of any of the composers I choose to hear, and would never really ignore or seek out a composer based on their protected characteristics. I have grown a little weary of identity politics, but wouldn't want to see a thread removed. I hope that identity and difference matters less than once it did when assessing value, but appreciate that some may wish to champion who they are as they present their work for performance or recording. Having said that, I'm never very sure how serious music (orchestral and so on) can communicate identity particularly, unlike visual or literary cultural contributions. Always open to learn, mind. I only really care whether the music is any good - sadly, we can sometimes end up having second rate art pushed to a place of prominence just because of political expediency.

I probably listen to enough second rate music as it is

[MusicTurner]

... very much agree.

[Mirror Image]

I have no issue with composers/artists celebrating their identity through their music (not suggesting you do either ), and staking their right to existence and marking their contribution. I am somewhat ambivalent to the gender/orientation/colour/racial background/age/physical or mental disability/religion/politics/worldview of any of the composers I choose to hear, and would never really ignore or seek out a composer based on their protected characteristics. I have grown a little weary of identity politics, but wouldn't want to see a thread removed. I hope that identity and difference matters less than once it did when assessing value, but appreciate that some may wish to champion who they are as they present their work for performance or recording. Having said that, I'm never very sure how serious music (orchestral and so on) can communicate identity particularly, unlike visual or literary cultural contributions. Always open to learn, mind. I only really care whether the music is any good - sadly, we can sometimes end up having second rate art pushed to a place of prominence just because of political expediency.

I probably listen to enough second rate music as it is

I can certainly relate to what you're saying, but, in my own case, instead of ambivalence, I would insert just flat-out tired of hearing about and being force-fed opinions. In the US, the liberals tell people they must "respect the equality of each individual", but yet, if I say something that is in direct disagreement with their political philosophy, I'm the bigot or "homophone" or whatever other misnomer they want to hurl at their so-called "enemy" (i. e. one who simply disagrees with them). I'm an "old fashioned" guy in many ways and have rather conservative beliefs, but this isn't even a factor when I'm listening to music. In music, it doesn't matter if you're black, white, purple, yellow or blue, just as long as you've moved people and gave them pleasure. This is more important than anything you, me or the Pope believes. And this is why I don't agree with the idea of this thread. It's not important to know whether this composer was gay (or queer or whatever). Only the music is of importance or, at least, this is my own viewpoint.

[Brian]

And this is why I don't agree with the idea of this thread.

Then just don't click on the thread. Jeez.

It looks like there was productive, interesting conversation happening here before you barged in to yell at everyone and tell them that you're conservative. It's easy to imagine many more interesting discussion topics: music inspired by love affairs or unrequited loves, relationships between composers (e.g. Barber/Menotti), composers whose self-repression led to psychological issues (e.g. Tippett), ways that composers interact with performers or their community, subjects of stage or operatic works, music with explicitly sexual subject material (e.g. Eastman), etc. etc. etc. etc.

If you don't like a subject, you really don't have to barge into a room and tell everyone that you don't like it. Let alone demand that the thing you don't like be censored. If you feel the need to continue doing this, maybe sign up for a pop music board where you can tell them about all the Top 40 songs you hate 

[Mirror Image]

Then just don't click on the thread. Jeez.

It looks like there was productive, interesting conversation happening here before you barged in to yell at everyone and tell them that you're conservative. It's easy to imagine many more interesting discussion topics: music inspired by love affairs or unrequited loves, relationships between composers (e.g. Barber/Menotti), composers whose self-repression led to psychological issues (e.g. Tippett), ways that composers interact with performers or their community, subjects of stage or operatic works, music with explicitly sexual subject material (e.g. Eastman), etc. etc. etc. etc.

If you don't like a subject, you really don't have to barge into a room and tell everyone that you don't like it. Let alone demand that the thing you don't like be censored. If you feel the need to continue doing this, maybe sign up for a pop music board where you can tell them about all the Top 40 songs you hate 

By the same token, there's absolutely no need for you to tell me what to do. I comment on what I want and when I want. You're not some grand arbiter of what is to be said and not said on this forum. Jeez.