Author Topic: HRH Prince Andrew.  (Read 1855 times)

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Offline vandermolen

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2019, 06:07:59 AM »
I agree with most what you say with the exception of the Queen. Would you ask for advice to how to handle the Press by your 93 year old mum? They have advisers for this sort of stuff. You are right though, her kids and grand kids are not much short of a disaster. Harry was the blue-eyed boy but since Meghan came along that has gone down the tubes. That a 93 year old women is keeping it all together is a worry - for them.

Largely agree with this. I found the interview too painful to watch, especially the 'too honourable' comment.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Ken B

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2019, 07:12:55 AM »
Largely agree with this. I found the interview too painful to watch, especially the 'too honourable' comment.
I had seen the young woman involved interviewed and not found her story very credible— she just kept adding famous names to her list. I think she even named some who provably could not have done it. But then Andrew tells this flagrant lie about not sweating. WTF. The honorable bit was bad too but for me the real question is why the lie? I don’t know what is true but I don’t give him any credibility now.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 11:14:50 AM »
I had seen the young woman involved interviewed and not found her story very credible— she just kept adding famous names to her list. I think she even named some who provably could not have done it. But then Andrew tells this flagrant lie about not sweating. WTF. The honorable bit was bad too but for me the real question is why the lie? I don’t know what is true but I don’t give him any credibility now.

Yes I agree. I didn't find her evidence convincing either.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline greg

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2019, 01:47:20 PM »
Me Too exponents may want to castrate me for this but isn’t it the case money is an aphrodisiac?
Yeah, for many women it is. That's why the 50 shades of Gray isn't some guy that works at Burger King.

Also that's why I don't get outraged at the infamous Trump quote. Whether he did questionable stuff or not, he's literally just stating a fact that people don't like to think about.

If I heard correctly, the underage people were paid? If that's the case then they have some responsibility in the crime as well, but i don't think they should be legal punished but rather have social disapproval. If they can just say no and turn down the money then that could have prevented the crime itself from happening.
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Offline Que

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2019, 11:30:09 PM »

If I heard correctly, the underage people were paid? If that's the case then they have some responsibility in the crime as well, but i don't think they should be legal punished but rather have social disapproval. If they can just say no and turn down the money then that could have prevented the crime itself from happening.

Greg, sex with minors - under any circumstance - is a crime for a reason.

I guess you don't get that reason.

Q

Offline Florestan

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 12:36:27 AM »
The Queen is ok, but after her, what next? I think Charles will be King only for the time needed to sign his abdication in William's favor. And then God save the British monarchy, if it is indeed worth saving.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Offline Florestan

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2019, 12:37:00 AM »
Greg, sex with minors - under any circumstance - is a crime for a reason.

Absolutely.
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Offline Jo498

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2019, 01:07:24 AM »
In most jurisdictions it is far more nuanced. The girl was not 13 (in this case it would be a crime in most jurisdictions under most circumstances) but 16-17, I think. In this case it would not be a crime in many jurisdictions unter many circumstances. There usually needs to be some element of prostitution or coercion. Which apparently was the case in the Epstein environment, but I still think it is important that the criminal offense is not merely due to age but a combination of age and coercive or similar circumstances.
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I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Irons

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2019, 01:17:58 AM »
Greg, sex with minors - under any circumstance - is a crime for a reason.



Q

Of course it is. Children have to be protected. It is no different then a stranger offering sweets to a young child to get into his car. Sweets, or for an older child money makes no difference.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2019, 01:19:30 AM »
In most jurisdictions it is far more nuanced. The girl was not 13 (in this case it would be a crime in most jurisdictions under most circumstances) but 16-17, I think. In this case it would not be a crime in many jurisdictions unter many circumstances. There usually needs to be some element of prostitution or coercion. Which apparently was the case in the Epstein environment, but I still think it is important that the criminal offense is not merely due to age but a combination of age and coercive or similar circumstances.

Do you imply that in many jurisdictions an adult having consensual sex with a minor does not commit a crime?
"Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”  --- Victor Hugo

Offline Jo498

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2019, 01:32:15 AM »
In most countries: "minor" means something different from "age of consent for sexual relations". In Germany, the former is below 18, and for the latter the ages of 14, 16 and 18 are relevant depending on the circumstances.
So most certainly having consensual unpaid etc. sex with a 16 year old is not an offense per se in Germany. I am not sure about the details, but I think for below 14 the only mitigating circumstances would be that the offender is roughly the same age, i.e. I am pretty sure that a 15 yo having consensual sex with a 13 yo would usually not be prosecuted. If one party is considerably older, there is some presumption that the "power differential" casts doubt on consent, so an 18 yo. will get in trouble for sex with a 13 yo. Between 14 and 18 similar rules could apply, I am not sure. But I am pretty sure that over the age of 14 there is no automatic "statutory rape" in Germany but it depends on circumstances.
And one can legally marry a non-minor partner with 16 (or at least it used to be like that when I learned that stuff in school in the 80s), although the parents of the minor partner need to agree.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline The new erato

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 02:06:08 AM »
Reminds me of a Norwegian saying: "S..t will eventually float to the surface"

Offline greg

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2019, 07:14:52 AM »
Greg, sex with minors - under any circumstance - is a crime for a reason.

I guess you don't get that reason.

Q
Not sure why you don't think i get it?

More specifically, if they are a teenager then they know what they are getting into and so are partially responsible. If they are only 8, then of course they have no responsibility of it at all.

That's just a side no one wants to look at. Would you feel no guilt at the age of 15 if you accepted a bribery of money (assuming it wasn't for survival)? Of course not.

Though the main focus should be on the criminals...
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Ken B

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2019, 07:31:19 AM »
sex with minors - under any circumstance - is a crime

In many jurisdictions there are exemptions, such as when both are minors, or the couple is married. And the age of consent varies so much that “minor” is an ambiguous term.

Ken B

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2019, 07:32:52 AM »
Do you imply that in many jurisdictions an adult having consensual sex with a minor does not commit a crime?
I don’t imply it. I state it.

Offline Jo498

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2019, 08:35:38 AM »
In many jurisdictions there are exemptions, such as when both are minors, or the couple is married. And the age of consent varies so much that “minor” is an ambiguous term.
This was mainly what I wanted to express above. Age of consent varies between 12 and 20 or so, if one looks into sufficiently different countries. In any case it is a much broader range than standard legal majority (for voting etc.).
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online Daverz

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2019, 01:00:31 PM »
Not sure why you don't think i get it?

More specifically, if they are a teenager then they know what they are getting into and so are partially responsible. If they are only 8, then of course they have no responsibility of it at all.

I'm gobsmacked at the idea that these trafficked kids taking whatever money their traffickers deigned to slip them now and then would be significant in anyone's moral calculus. 

Online André

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2019, 01:12:33 PM »

Ken B

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2019, 01:45:07 PM »
Relevant details here: https://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/crime-date-minor-canada/
Good link André.
Minor status and the age of consent need not coincide, and the age of consent not only varies from country to country but according to circumstances.
I am rather impressed by Canadian law here. It’s morally obtuse to treat a 15 year old and his 17 year old girlfriend having consensual sex the same as Epstein.

Offline greg

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Re: HRH Prince Andrew.
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2019, 04:23:37 PM »
I'm gobsmacked at the idea that these trafficked kids taking whatever money their traffickers deigned to slip them now and then would be significant in anyone's moral calculus.
I might as well not bother making any point at all about this, since it will only be warped into something completely different since it's such a sensitive subject, so no critical thinking allowed, I guess.
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