HRH Prince Andrew.

[greg]

Actually I thought something simple that might help reduce these crimes from happening as much, and I don't know if it's a good idea or terrible idea, but screw it, I'm just not going to say anything at all because I don't trust people to not respond emotionally to stuff, leading to misrepresentation, etc. (of course, negative criticism would be welcome coming from a logical perspective, but people are just unable to temporarily detach in order to help make things better)

[Jo498]

I think for most people (certainly for me) the trafficking and exploitative prostitution are the main problem here, not whether the girls are 15, 17 or 25. The age does make it worse in the case of minors but it is for me a secondary issue, at least past ca. 15-16.
I don't think there is a simple recipe for reducing these crimes. 50 years ago people kidded themselves that a bigoted society and personal repressions or whatever the the then current pseudo-Freudian take on sex was were the main causes and liberalization or what is now termed "sexual revolution" would be the solution.

If metoo, Epstein etc. has shown anything, it seems that this "solution" was at the least utterly naive. As there obviously is no way back to traditional "repressed" sexual mores, the toolbox does not offer that many options.
Germany tried to improve the situation of prostitutes or "sex workers" with more liberalization in the last 20 years but the consequences are apparently not that great. Maybe it was not the best idea to have this almost coincide with open borders to the poor easter/southeastern European countries. (Of course, human trafficking is still illegal, but apparently quite hard to get rid of) Also the fact that other countries (France, Sweden) went for a tough course (criminalizing the customers) led to sex tourism into Germany with huge brothels in regions close to France. (Another newish thing are apparently Nigerian girls held in thrall via Voodoo beliefs that make them fear magical retribution from their pimps and madams if they try to get away.)

[dissily Mordentroge]

In more cultures than I care to think about even today it's legal to marry pre-pubescent children.
In Afganistan, a nation supposedly running to strict muslim rules, pre-teen dancing boys are offered 'for the night' to visiting chieftains.
I was invited to one of these events without knowing how it would conclude. As a member of the diplomatic corps I was the one offered the boy for the night. In refusing to not accept the offer I nearly had my throat cut.
Some years prior to this I met an African chieftain at the airport upon his arrival in Australia. His first question was. "Mr X, can you take me to the prostitutes". Not wanting to cause a diplomatic incident I had us driven to the red light district where he found what he wanted. Three years later when I saw him off back to Africa he told me "Mr X, when you come to my village any of my sons or daughters, grandsons or grandaughters are your's for taking" I didn't think much of this until I mentioned it back at the office only to be told he meant whichever member of his family I chose would be my property to do with what I wished and that if I didn't accept any of his family as 'mine' the consequences could be fatal. I think what I'm trying to draw attention to here is the disgusting idea that any human, no matter what the age, can be regarded as the property of another is beyond evil.

[Irons]

I think for most people (certainly for me) the trafficking and exploitative prostitution are the main problem here, not whether the girls are 15, 17 or 25. The age does make it worse in the case of minors but it is for me a secondary issue, at least past ca. 15-16.

I do not think age is a secondary issue if you are the girl's father - I realise I am bringing emotion into it but it is an emotive issue. If my 15 year old daughter was used for sex (not precipitating as they do that anyway) it would be a very main problem indeed.
What also has to be taken in account is the psychological damage on a young mind when exploited in such a way.

[Jo498]

That's why laws are not made by concerned parents but by "disinterested" parliaments and jurists.
I don't say that the age is irrelevant (I explicitly wrote that it is worse for younger ones). Mainly, that trafficking for prostitution is sufficiently bad with 25 year olds (or at any age) that I think that the illegality and punishment should mainly focus on human trafficking, not on whether the girls are 16 or 26. I can understand the special outrage for 14 or younger but not with 16 yo vs. 20 yo.

[dissily Mordentroge]

There's an issue seldom discussed in this context, the 'sexual rights' of the young. Even though we know adults of our species are often prone to take advantage of the young how should we treat the young who are experimenting sexually with those of their own age? In an era when children are exposed to pornography from the day they are given their first mobile phone we have opened Pandora's box.
I confess though my perspective on this may be somewhat biased having been a sexually very active 14 year old once I discovered the showers at my local surf life saving club. I was lucky in that nobody ever forced me to do anything against my will but the puritanical attitude to sex in that era (I'm 73) meant none of us would have dared speak to our parents or teachers about what we were up to.
And there lies one of the biggest problems associated with child sex abuse. The majority of children are abused either within their own home by close relatives of by authority figures such as priests.
This last is a really complex subject and although we've had saturation media coverage about child sex abuse and the church of late hardly ever is are the really difficult questions asked. What difficult questions? For one why are pedophiles attracted to the priesthood? Is it possible that worshiping a farther who tortured his own son on the cross to redeem sins he knowingly made possible in the first place has anything to do with it?
I'm wandering a long way from Prince Andrew and his family, a family whose sexual history over the centuries is worth contemplating .

[Florestan]

For one why are pedophiles attracted to the priesthood? Is it possible that worshiping a farther who tortured his own son on the cross to redeem sins he knowingly made possible in the first place has anything to do with it?

That's pure fantasy. A much more prosaic and plausible explanation is that paedophiles are naturally attracted towards professions in which frequent contact with children and youngsters is an essential part of the job descriptiion.

[dissily Mordentroge]

That's pure fantasy. A much more prosaic and plausible explanation is that paedophiles are naturally attracted towards professions in which frequent contact with children and youngsters is an essential part of the job descriptiion.

Teachers have far more regular contact with children than priests yet feature far less in juvenile sexual abuse statistics.

And yes, Christian theology is pure fantasy, a very dangerous, sadistic fantasy the young should not be exposed to.

[Florestan]

Teachers have far more regular contact with children than priests yet feature far less in juvenile sexual abuse statistics.

Teachers are usually married with kids and their contact with children is much more public and regulated than the Catholic priests'. Besides, the Roman Catholic Church, unlike schools, has a proven record of denial and concealing when it comes to paedophilia. A paedophile is much more likely to be protected and go unpunished. as a priest than as a teacher.

Fwiw, in Romania most convicted paedophiles were working, or volunteering, for NGOs dealing with abandoned or disfavored children. Paedophilia among clergy is rare, but then again not only are Orthodox priests not required to be celibate, they are actually required to be married in order to have their own parish.

[Ken B]

And yes, Christian theology is pure fantasy, a very dangerous, sadistic fantasy the young should not be exposed to.

You just posted about widespread child sexual abuse amongst the largest non-Christian group on the planet. Do you actually read what you write? Or is everything an excuse to trot out the hobby-horse?

Should not? Laws I suppose.

[Ken B]

Am I the only one who thinks this is crazy?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/prince-andrew-was-given-beautiful-young-neurosurgeon-by-jeffrey-epstein-says-ex-housekeeper

"Given" a beautiful young neurosurgeon as a concubine? Because brilliant young neurosurgeons — an anonymous one, they are so thick on the ground they are hard to keep track of — have no choice but prostitution to make ends meet.

[SimonNZ]

Also that's why I don't get outraged at the infamous Trump quote. Whether he did questionable stuff or not, he's literally just stating a fact that people don't like to think about.

The quote was infamous because he was saying he didn't care about consent.

[Ken B]

That's why laws are not made by concerned parents but by "disinterested" parliaments and jurists.
I don't say that the age is irrelevant (I explicitly wrote that it is worse for younger ones). Mainly, that trafficking for prostitution is sufficiently bad with 25 year olds (or at any age) that I think that the illegality and punishment should mainly focus on human trafficking, not on whether the girls are 16 or 26. I can understand the special outrage for 14 or younger but not with 16 yo vs. 20 yo.

Things no one has ever said: "Sure my daughter was pumped full of drugs and sold by her pimp but at least she was 23."

[Jo498]

That's pure fantasy. A much more prosaic and plausible explanation is that paedophiles are naturally attracted towards professions in which frequent contact with children and youngsters is an essential part of the job descriptiion.

I think it is generally acknowledged although often not made clear in popular news articles that there are not more paedophiles among the catholic priests than in similar positions. Overall the abuse rates in sports, any church (so there is not the clear connection with celibacy the naive person would assume), any youth organisation etc. are pretty similar. Of course, data for this are not exact. But the people who make or lose money here, namely insurance companies, do not ask catholic organisations to pay a higher premium in such insurances (for the legal trouble or possible reparations) than other non-religious organisations.
The one thing that might be worse in the catholic church is the power it had and used to cover up things. But this is a different issue, the rate of abuse is not signficantly higher than elsewhere.

[dissily Mordentroge]

You just posted about widespread child sexual abuse amongst the largest non-Christian group on the planet. Do you actually read what you write? Or is everything an excuse to trot out the hobby-horse?

Should not? Laws I suppose.

The specifics of on religions theology may not relate to an others in the matter of specifics causes of institutionalised childhood sexual abuse.  However, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the age of some of Muhammad's 'brides'.
And yes, I do read what I write. Do you think about what you read?

[Ken B]

The specifics of on religions theology may not relate to an others in the matter of specifics causes of institutionalised childhood sexual abuse.  However, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the age of some of Muhammad's 'brides'.
And yes, I do read what I write. Do you think about what you read?

Ah, presumptuous as well as illogical. You must be fun at parties.

[Ken B]

I think it is generally acknowledged although often not made clear in popular news articles that there are not more paedophiles among the catholic priests than in similar positions. Overall the abuse rates in sports, any church (so there is not the clear connection with celibacy the naive person would assume), any youth organisation etc. are pretty similar. Of course, data for this are not exact. But the people who make or lose money here, namely insurance companies, do not ask catholic organisations to pay a higher premium in such insurances (for the legal trouble or possible reparations) than other non-religious organisations.
The one thing that might be worse in the catholic church is the power it had and used to cover up things. But this is a different issue, the rate of abuse is not signficantly higher than elsewhere.

No, I think it is clear the RC church has a special problem. That is why they have lost court cases for conspiracy. They had a policy of moving priests, and special organizations for recycling them. You have any actual data?

[Florestan]

No, I think it is clear the RC church has a special problem. That is why they have lost court cases for conspiracy. They had a policy of moving priests, and special organizations for recycling them.

The RCC has a proven record of denial and cover up regarding this issue. If they get more exposure and arouse more outrage than other organisations it's precisely because of that (plus other obvious and no less compelling reasons)

You have any actual data?

That's what I'd like to know, too.

[dissily Mordentroge]

Ah, presumptuous as well as illogical. You must be fun at parties.

At my age I seldom attend parties and like you suspect I'm no longer fun and possibly presumptuous too.

[JBS]

The specifics of on religions theology may not relate to an others in the matter of specifics causes of institutionalised childhood sexual abuse.  However, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the age of some of Muhammad's 'brides'.
And yes, I do read what I write. Do you think about what you read?

We have the testimony of Mohammed's child bride that getting married to him meant nothing more than playing in front of Mohammed's tent instead of her father's tent.

And you might want to acquaint yourself with bridal ages in the medieval era and earlier. Child brides among the elite were not unusual, even at times were the norm.