Why does structure matter?

[steve ridgway]

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By checking out whether a human organised them. This isn't a difficult question unless you bend over backwards to make it one by pretending that the accidental side-effect of operating a jackhammer, noise, is the same thing as the planned goal of operating a jackhammer.

The sound of a jackhammer is only a component of music if someone decided that they wanted to hear the sound of a jackhammer, and weren't interested in breaking up some concrete.

I didn't realise there were any more Faust fans on here, although this may also appeal to the Dylan fans being one of his songs .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gl46QfR6wE

[steve ridgway]

More complicated things are going on in Cage's Four, where there does seem to be some sort of pattern of phrase lengths and pauses. I very much like Four.

https://www.youtube.com/v/_UsC2TBvGy8&feature=emb_logo

I like that, it's immersive, similar to Scelsi .

[Mandryka]

Can you recognise this as a performance of The Goldberg Variations?

https://www.youtube.com/v/YPHuky0YOtg

[Mandryka]

I like that, it's immersive, similar to Scelsi .

I agree, I like it too

[steve ridgway]

Can you recognise this as a performance of The Goldberg Variations?

https://www.youtube.com/v/YPHuky0YOtg

Well I wouldn't .

[Madiel]

Can you recognise this as a performance of The Goldberg Variations?

https://www.youtube.com/v/YPHuky0YOtg

Yes, within in a matter of seconds, and I don't know the Goldberg Variations very well. But clearly someone is attempting to play the Goldberg theme.

What are you trying to say? That someone mangling "To be or not to be" would demonstrate that Shakespeare didn't actually write Hamlet?

[Cato]

Can you recognise this as a performance of The Goldberg Variations?

https://www.youtube.com/v/YPHuky0YOtg

Well I wouldn't .

Yes, within in a matter of seconds, and I don't know the Goldberg Variations very well. But clearly someone is attempting to play the Goldberg theme.

As played by Anton Von Webern?   

One of the YouTube comments - by the performer - says it is being done in the "cantabile" style which "Bach intended."    

To be sure, I am not an expert by any means on 17th-18th century performance style, and I listened to the opening 5 minutes.  But my first impression is that here we have an example of a performer playing the notes and ignoring the work's structure.  However, I am now intrigued, and must listen to this much more...if only to give it a fair hearing. 

[dissily Mordentroge]

I'd like to take this in a slightly different direction by suggesting there are not just two ways of experiencing 'structure' but potentially three.
Consciously being aware a composition is structured.
Being aware of structure but experiencing it mainly analytically as would an  academic musicologist.
Experiencing on an emotional level the effect of structure without knowing or analysing how this is accomplished.
The first and second may happen simultaneously, the last necessarily alone.
The question is can we know why a composer structured a work as they did? To comply with the fashions/academic dictates of the day?
To accomplish a dramatic effect?
Without any deliberate 'sticking to the rules' with structure arrising ( searching for the right word here) almost impetuously?
How much any of this matters though could be more due to subjectivity than anything else I suspect.
I recall for instance in my youth eagerly awaiting structural shift in, say, a sonata without any knowledge whatsover such was a 'thing'.

[Mandryka]

Quite a bit of music has a structure based on frequencies of sounds. There's a home key, the music moves away from that key like someone on a journey, maybe after some "adventures" it comes home, maybe not, maybe changed, maybe not. This is I guess a narrative structure.

Cage talks as though he wants to investigate a different basis for musical structures, music structured by duration rather than frequency. I've been listening to The Music of Changes IV with this in mind, but I'm getting nowhere. I've also been listening to the second part (lent) of the Barraqué sonata, because I remembered that it made very effective use of silence which seemed to give a structure to the music - I'm not sure really about that. I'm not having much luck with post war music today!

As played by Anton Von Webern?   

One of the YouTube comments - by the performer - says it is being done in the "cantabile" style which "Bach intended."    

To be sure, I am not an expert by any means on 17th-18th century performance style, and I listened to the opening 5 minutes.  But my first impression is that here we have an example of a performer playing the notes and ignoring the work's structure.  However, I am now intrigued, and must listen to this much more...if only to give it a fair hearing. 

I like it very much! On the Bach composer thread here I posted something about what he means by cantabile style, with a question, only yesterday.

For me it's a great way to play the music because the life, the drama, comes from deep within the music, from the interaction of all the inner voices.

[dissily Mordentroge]

Quite a bit of music has a structure based on frequencies of sounds. There's a home key, the music moves away from that key like someone on a journey, maybe after some "adventures" it comes home, maybe not, maybe changed, maybe not. This is I guess a narrative structure.

Often I find with non-classical music key changes are so unresloved and unexpected they set my teeth on edge; an instantaneous reaction without needing anything like conscious thought let alone theorising. Simply the shock of the unfamiliar or something more innate in our species? Atonalism for some reason doesn't challenge me this way, maybe because there's no unambiguous key in operation to be dumped without warning?

[steve ridgway]

I like it very much! On the Bach composer thread here I posted something about what he means by cantabile style, with a question, only yesterday.

For me it's a great way to play the music because the life, the drama, comes from deep within the music, from the interaction of all the inner voices.

In my ignorance I have not been prejudiced by expectation and I find this quite interesting, the way the energy flows between the lower and higher voices, one speeding up, playing more notes, while the other slows down, then they swap over again.

[dissily Mordentroge]

In my ignorance I have not been prejudiced by expectation and I find this quite interesting, the way the energy flows between the lower and higher voices, one speeding up, playing more notes, while the other slows down, then they swap over again.

Bravo for ignorance ! ! !

[steve ridgway]

Often I find with non-classical music key changes are so unresloved and unexpected they set my teeth on edge; an instantaneous reaction without needing anything like conscious thought let alone theorising. Simply the shock of the unfamiliar or something more innate in our species?

I like that, it comes across to me as a feeling of energy.

[steve ridgway]

I'd like to take this in a slightly different direction by suggesting there are not just two ways of experiencing 'structure' but potentially three.
Consciously being aware a composition is structured.
Being aware of structure but experiencing it mainly analytically as would an  academic musicologist.
Experiencing on an emotional level the effect of structure without knowing or analysing how this is accomplished.
The first and second may happen simultaneously, the last necessarily alone.

I just enjoy the experience of listening to the sounds really. As I become more familiar with a piece I'll start to learn bits that repeat, vary, contrast and so on but haven't the faintest idea about academic concepts like basing a composition on someone's initials.

[Madiel]

I just enjoy the experience of listening to the sounds really. As I become more familiar with a piece I'll start to learn bits that repeat, vary, contrast and so on but haven't the faintest idea about academic concepts like basing a composition on someone's initials.

And you don't have to. No more than I have to understand advanced cooking techniques to enjoy a meal.

Understanding the structure of a piece of music is arguably fairly important for performing it, but I wouldn't say it's needed for listening to it (just as I would hope a cook understands a recipe they're following, but I don't need to read the recipe before eating).

[Cato]

And you don't have to. No more than I have to understand advanced cooking techniques to enjoy a meal.

Understanding the structure of a piece of music is arguably fairly important for performing it, but I wouldn't say it's needed for listening to it (just as I would hope a cook understands a recipe they're following, but I don't need to read the recipe before eating).

When Mrs. Cato heard the opening seconds of Bach's Goldberg Variations offered above, she was quite positive about it, and then after a minute or so, she was enthusiastic about it.  As I wrote above, my initial reaction was puzzlement at the interpretation ("performed by Anton von Webern"), but I am looking forward very much now to hearing the entire work!   

[Mandryka]

but I am looking forward very much now to hearing the entire work!   

My advice is not to try to listen to it all at once, I might listen to one half at a time or even just up to a couple of the canons. Colin Booth's Goldbergs, which are also well worth a listen, respond to this sort of treatment I think.

[San Antone]

When Mrs. Cato heard the opening seconds of Bach's Goldberg Variations offered above, she was quite positive about it, and then after a minute or so, she was enthusiastic about it.  As I wrote above, my initial reaction was puzzlement at the interpretation ("performed by Anton von Webern"), but I am looking forward very much now to hearing the entire work!   

Those Wolfgang Rubsam recordings on lute-harpsichord have been discussed on GMG quite a bit. He has recorded most of the major keyboard works in the last few years in the same manner, which in his booklet essay he says was a result of examining the original manuscripts.  He concluded that because Bach did not align the musical lines vertically that it implied an asynchronous method of playing the counterpoint.

While I do enjoy these recordings, I grow tired of his interpretation after about 30 minutes, and remain unconvinced of his argument.  But the jury is still out.

[Mandryka]

Those Wolfgang Rubsam recordings on lute-harpsichord have been discussed on GMG quite a bit. He has recorded most of the major keyboard works in the last few years in the same manner, which in his booklet essay he says was a result of examining the original manuscripts.  He concluded that because Bach did not align the musical lines vertically that it implied an asynchronous method of playing the counterpoint.

And the letter from Friedrich Griepenkerl

Bach himself, his sons, and Forkel played the masterpieces with such a profound declamation that they sounded like polyphonic songs sung by individual great artist singers.  Thereby, all means of good singing were brought into use.  No cercare, No portamento was missing, even breathing was in all the right places.  Bach's music wants to be sung with the maximum of art.

[San Antone]

And the letter from Friedrich Griepenkerl

cercare, in Italian, means search, to search, searching.  I am not sure how this translates into a musical application - but the text you quoted would otherwise seem to support Rubsam's approach to some degree.  Whether or not Rubsam's example is an exaggerated manner of playing Bach in the way indicated in the text quoted from the letter, we will never know.