Author Topic: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound  (Read 216 times)

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Offline Carlo Gesualdo

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Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« on: December 03, 2019, 04:25:28 AM »
Japan's Mastudaira piano work and
Arthur Lourié to my ear's

What is to you almost ''rip-off'' of Satie or Satie doppelganger, music a kind to let's say La Gnossienne, jeez I love this work. Yep, this particular strange simple odd work seems like a piece of ancient time music that no one knows was it came from, It kind sound plaintive, and middle eastern, this is why ensemble Sarband did La Gnossienne in a middle eastern flavouring, I happen to have this, very odd & strange.

I wonder if there is some strange medieval song that sounds like La Gnossienne and an anonymous song of old age.

What if Satie digs this up somewhere, and this work is inspired by a medieval work of ancient times?

Just like Carl Orff trilogy all inspired by codex Buranus, stuff noobs don't know.

Not only it sounds medieval but kind of very ancient La gnossienne seems so mysterious to me?

Even nowadays, perhaps a Rosencrux secret, have nice day folks thanks for reading my post if you don't like em don't blast me if you do like me please comment.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 04:46:49 AM by Carlo Gesualdo »

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2019, 05:17:17 AM »
It sounds medieval -- early Satie I mean -- because it's modal. If you really like this type of music then you should explore Cage, the number pieces and even the early Quartet in Four Parts. And Laurence Crane

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Vf2BQtMQNgs" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Vf2BQtMQNgs</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/IS4ME_IqyQA" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/IS4ME_IqyQA</a>
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 05:21:17 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline some guy

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2019, 08:16:06 AM »
Cage even did a cheap imitation, called, oddly enough Cheap Imitation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dKpRei9qgA

Online pjme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2019, 08:28:03 AM »
The Wikipedia article on the Gnossiennes is quite elaborate ( possibly borrowed from program notes to the integral execution of Satie's Piano work (Ghent, De Rode Pomp, 1–2 December 1995) by belgian pianist Claude Coppens)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnossiennes


"Gnossienne, however, was a word that did not exist before Satie used it as a title for a composition. The word appears to derive from gnosis. Satie was involved in gnostic sects and movements at the time that he began to compose the Gnossiennes. However, some published versions claim that the word derives from Cretan "knossos" or "gnossus"; this interpretation supports the theory linking the Gnossiennes to the myth of Theseus, Ariadne and the Minotaur. Several archeological sites relating to that theme were famously excavated around the time that Satie composed the Gnossiennes.

It is possible that Satie may have drawn inspiration for the title of these compositions from a passage in John Dryden's 1697 translation of the Aeneid, in which it is thought the word first appeared:

Let us the land which Heav'n appoints, explore;
Appease the winds, and seek the Gnossian shore.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2019, 08:32:09 AM »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 08:52:51 AM »
Cretan "knossos" or "gnossus"

Knossos (Κνωσσός) is a Cretan toponym and there's no "gnossus" variant of it. Always take wikipedia information with a grain of salt.

Offline Christo

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 10:57:09 AM »
Knossos (Κνωσσός) is a Cretan toponym and there's no "gnossus" variant of it. Always take wikipedia information with a grain of salt.
Are you sure a Latin variant (gnossus is a Latinization) was never used? Can hardly imagine it never happened.  :(
… music is not only an 'entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 11:23:15 AM »
Are you sure a Latin variant (gnossus is a Latinization) was never used? Can hardly imagine it never happened.  :(

I've never encountered it. The word is obviously a corruption that bears no etymological relation to the original name. Furthermore, the notion of retroactively explaining the corrupted "gnossus" with the Greek word for knowledge (γνῶσις, gnōsis) is etymologically ludicrous.

Online pjme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 11:18:04 PM »
Knossos (Κνωσσός) is a Cretan toponym and there's no "gnossus" variant of it. Always take wikipedia information with a grain of salt.

I'm well prepared.


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Offline Daverz

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2019, 11:13:37 AM »
I'm well prepared.


My salt stock !

Ah, yeah, sure, "salt".

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2019, 11:57:33 AM »
Federico Mompou’s music gets rather Satiean at times.

“Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 03:04:53 PM »
Federico Mompou’s music gets rather Satiean at times.


This is probably as close as anyone is going to get, Federico Mompou. A great composer in his own right. I would also say Francis Poulenc was Satie's most faithful disciple.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 09:13:00 PM »
This is probably as close as anyone is going to get, Federico Mompou. A great composer in his own right. I would also say Francis Poulenc was Satie's most faithful disciple.

Poulenc could be rather comical in a Satiean way, but his range was much greater than Satie's, especially in those sublime choral works and the sheer emotional gravitas found in those chamber works, especially the sonatas for clarinet, flute, oboe, and cello.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:34:21 PM by Mirror Image »
“Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline Christo

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 11:33:43 PM »
I've never encountered it. The word is obviously a corruption that bears no etymological relation to the original name. Furthermore, the notion of retroactively explaining the corrupted "gnossus" with the Greek word for knowledge (γνῶσις, gnōsis) is etymologically ludicrous.
Sounds as the ´normal, historical´way to me, including the simplistic (´folk´) etymological element. But since you never encountered it, it cannot have been more than an accidental curiosity, I guess.

Edit: found it (should have known of course): 'Gnossus' was the common 19th Century name archeologists and 'western' scholars used after the excavations, see e.g.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22Gnossus%22%29&lang=fr&suggest=0
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 11:55:53 PM by Christo »
… music is not only an 'entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Online pjme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #14 on: Today at 12:15:04 AM »
"Gnossienne", a neologism possibly invented by Satie?  Perhaps inspired by the World Exhibition in Paris in 1889???

"De zes Gnossiennes zijn geschreven tussen 1890 en 1897. De titel is een neologisme, wellicht gevormd uit ‘Knossos’, een plek op het eiland Kreta met verschillende mythologische connotaties. Ze behoren tot de meest gespeelde en beluisterde werkjes van Satie. In de Gnossiennes 1-3 uit 1890 zien we Satie’s eerste cryptische speelaanwijzingen verschijnen.
Instructies als “sur la langue” en “sans orgeuil” kunnen de pianist evenveel bijbrengen als van de wijs brengen. Vanaf dat moment zijn de annotaties een typerend kenmerk in het werk van Satie. Ze geven de musici steeds een synesthetische indicatie die eerder poëtisch dan letterlijk begrepen moet worden."

Source: https://www.festival2021.be/assets/961

Yentl Ventôse, teksten & eindredactie
Pieter Bergé, teksten & hoofdredactie

And:

Mary E. Davis observes that the thinking behind Erik Satie’s Trois Gnossiennes (1889-1893) may relate to ‘Satie’s deepening interest in religion and occultism’, particularly ‘his fascination with Gnosticism officially re-established in France in 1890’.
Founded on principles of spiritual enlightenment the Gnostic church included Rosicrucianism as one of its most important orders, thus Satie’s engagement with this sect would have been natural.

Davis’ interpretation seems to propose that the title Gnossienne derived from the Hellenic term Gnosis, meaning to gain insight, a primary aim for many fin de siècle occultists and philosophers. This again questions the nature of Erik Satie’s documented blague behaviour. Perhaps Satie’s relationship with le recherché and religious mysticism may have been more serious than scholars have first thought.
...
Satie’s occultist interests before and after the three Gnossienne publications suggest that the French composer was immersed in the period’s mysticism. Indeed, the Trois Gnossiennes’ connotation with gnosis, as well as the potential link to the exotic symbolism at the Universal Exposition, suggests that Satie was aiming to portray ‘an authentic spirit’ harking back to a pure, folkloric society...

According to Anagret Fauser in her study of exoticism at the Universal Exposition of 1889, Satie attended performances of the Romanian folk ensemble at the Romanian salon, which may have directly influenced his own ideas for these Gnossiennes.

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/4344/1/Simmons13MMus.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Church_of_France



Maybe someone has Ornella Volta's book?
« Last Edit: Today at 03:53:16 AM by pjme »

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #15 on: Today at 03:19:19 AM »
Poulenc could be rather comical in a Satiean way, but his range was much greater than Satie's, especially in those sublime choral works and the sheer emotional gravitas found in those chamber works, especially the sonatas for clarinet, flute, oboe, and cello.
I don't see Satie as a strictly comical composer or lacking at all in range. There is gravitas and power in much of his work as there is in Poulenc. Listen to Reinbert de Leeuw playing his Sarabandes sometime for example. Anyway, the younger composer was without a doubt the better orchestrator, but I think he'd have been nothing without his one-time mentor. Whichever one prefers is neither here nor there, but give me Satie any day. That being said I am exploring Poulenc's music lately and keep finding myself blown away by one aspect of his music or another; I'd been underestimating him, as so many do with Satie ;). Not a slight at you, MI, as you appear to value his music as I do, but so many people dismiss his music entirely on the grounds that he was altogether not serious.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #16 on: Today at 06:39:31 AM »
According to Anagret Fauser in her study of exoticism at the Universal Exposition of 1889, Satie attended performances of the Romanian folk ensemble at the Romanian salon, which may have directly influenced his own ideas for these Gnossiennes.

I'd like to know what connection, and how, does Anagret Fauser establish between Romanian folk music and Gnosticism.

My opinion is that, given Satie's penchant for mocking the pretension of the "learned" musicians, he simply contrived this word to confound people and give the music an aura of mystery and profundity. Looks like he succeeded beyond expectations.  ;D
“I compose music because I must give expression to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts.”  --- Rachmaninoff

Online pjme

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Re: Classical music that seem close to Satie in sound
« Reply #17 on: Today at 06:52:11 AM »

Allow me just to quote from mr. Simmons thesis:
The purpose of this thesis has been to emphasise the importance that mysticism has occupied in Erik Satie’s life and early piano music from 1886 to 1893.
...
In chapter three we discussed the inherent mysticism that drove Satie’s Ogives, and the purity many artists tried to replicate from the medieval l’esprit gaulois. The chapter aimed to find some authenticity here. We came across the two terms, "la blague" and "le recherché", and concluded that Satie would have been in contact with both ideas at this point in his life, shuttling between the cabaret and symbolist sects.

"One critic wrote that the Romanian folk ensemble successfully portrayed the ‘musical soul of the people’. Again, there are comparisons here with the purity invoked in the revival of l’esprit gaulois."
Source:0 Goudeau quoted in Fauser (2005), 259. Romanian communities had remained united even after centuries of
foreign invasions. There was a sense that their music reflected their suffering and triumph. It was essentially
soulful and rich in heritage.
https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/4344/1/Simmons13MMus.pdf
« Last Edit: Today at 06:56:09 AM by pjme »