Author Topic: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?  (Read 1684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online San Antone

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7982
  • Currently Listening to:
    American Music
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2019, 07:41:04 AM »
I'll check it later, I don't think it's the same music. There's a lot of good stuff online here

https://musicasecreta.com/from-darkness-into-light-short-documentary-film

As far as I can tell, Brumel only wrote one incomplete set of Lamentations, and it is not certain which sections he actually wrote.  There are two verses everyone agrees about, but the rest are speculative.  Musica Secrata is claiming to have the "complete" Brumel Lamentations - but their claim that Brumel wrote all of the music might be contested.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 07:44:41 AM by San Antone »

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2019, 07:46:31 AM »
As far as I can tell, Brumel only wrote one incomplete set of Lamentations, and it is not certain which sections he actually wrote.  There are two verses everyone agrees about, but the rest are speculative.  Musica Secrata is claiming to have the "complete" Brumel Lamentations - but their claim that Brumel wrote all of the music might be contested.

Early music's great! We're not going to run out of work.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online San Antone

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7982
  • Currently Listening to:
    American Music
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2019, 08:06:10 AM »
Early music's great! We're not going to run out of work.

The only section of Lamentations that Grove attributes to Brumel is "Heth". So even Peter Phillips adds in unsure sections.

Offline Biffo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2019, 08:10:09 AM »
What I'd really like is for you to listen to the lamed, because it may be that my judgement of the affect of the music is completely up the wall; I  don't think that the feeling a bit of music gives rise to in one listener can be generalised to all listeners -- why should it be? 

As far as the liturgical role of the Brumel Lamentations is concerned. after noting that the lamentations have a structure which in some way (which I haven't fully understood yet) corresponds to the conventions of Latin tragedy, Laurie Stras makes this comment
 


As far as the performance goes, we read

I did listen to the Musica secreta recording or as much of Lamed as I could take. I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation. I have no objection to female voices in mixed choirs, all-female choirs or as soloists in renaissance (and earlier) repertoire but I do not like the sound of Musica secreta in this particular piece. The sleeve notes suggest that the work may have been written for a private performance by a confraternity and so more dramatic than a liturgical setting.

I have the Philips album Perfect Polyphony and the minimal sleeve notes are more or less useless saying nothing about the work. I couldn't find any other recordings of the Brumel.


Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2019, 09:08:36 AM »
I did listen to the Musica secreta recording or as much of Lamed as I could take. I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation. I have no objection to female voices in mixed choirs, all-female choirs or as soloists in renaissance (and earlier) repertoire but I do not like the sound of Musica secreta in this particular piece. The sleeve notes suggest that the work may have been written for a private performance by a confraternity and so more dramatic than a liturgical setting.

I have the Philips album Perfect Polyphony and the minimal sleeve notes are more or less useless saying nothing about the work. I couldn't find any other recordings of the Brumel.

Thanks, it does look as though it is indeed a cheerful interpretation. And that leave the fascinating question: why?

 I heard them perform it in Brighton Early Music Festival this year -- I've only gone to the CD once, and that was yesterday.

The only section of Lamentations that Grove attributes to Brumel is "Heth". So even Peter Phillips adds in unsure sections.

Thanks for checking there.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Biffo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2019, 09:16:19 AM »
Thanks, it does look as though it is indeed a cheerful interpretation. And that leave the fascinating question: why?

 I heard them perform it in Brighton Early Music Festival this year -- I've only gone to the CD once, and that was yesterday.

Thanks for checking there.

I don't think 'cheerful' is the right word, it is just not as dark or austere as I would expect (cf. Victoria).

Online vandermolen

  • Silver Subscriber
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2019, 10:23:25 AM »
A 20th Century Magnificat which I like very much. In fact this is one of my favourite VW CDs:

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:25:49 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2019, 01:38:37 AM »
I found it saccharine rather than jolly and out of character with what I would expect from a Lamentation.

They sing like a bunch of renaissance putti.

I rather like Musica Secreta's approach to lamentations. People dance at funerals.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y</a>
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Biffo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2019, 02:51:07 AM »
They sing like a bunch of renaissance putti.

I rather like Musica Secreta's approach to lamentations. People dance at funerals.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/3k3hM_Gcu4Y</a>

The Lamentations weren't written for a funeral but for Vespers on Good Friday. What people do at funerals in West Africa is a complete irrelevance.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2019, 04:12:57 AM »
Didn't jesus have a funeral on the Friday? I think the idea is that these vespers were written for a sort of opera after church.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Biffo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2019, 04:35:37 AM »
Didn't jesus have a funeral on the Friday? I think the idea is that these vespers were written for a sort of opera after church.

Where do you get this witless garbage from? Vespers for Holy Week were also known as Tenebrae because they were celebrated in the early hours of the day before dawn. Vespers for the last three days of the week had a complex liturgy that included Lamentations, Responsories and other prayers. It was a very solemn service for the holiest days of the Church calendar not some pick'n' mix 'opera after church' (whatever that means).

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 54336
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2019, 04:35:53 AM »
very interesting, quite enlightening I should says, thanks
folks for details & explications very clever.

Although it does not answer to your "Lamentations or Magnificat" choice, I'd suggest Arvo Pärt's Psalms of Repentance.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2019, 06:08:21 AM »
Where do you get this witless garbage from? Vespers for Holy Week were also known as Tenebrae because they were celebrated in the early hours of the day before dawn. Vespers for the last three days of the week had a complex liturgy that included Lamentations, Responsories and other prayers. It was a very solemn service for the holiest days of the Church calendar not some pick'n' mix 'opera after church' (whatever that means).

Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 06:23:50 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Biffo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1712
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2019, 06:28:48 AM »
Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.

I have read the booklet to the CD and I have now lost patience with this discussion.

Online San Antone

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7982
  • Currently Listening to:
    American Music
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2019, 06:30:06 AM »
Read the booklet to the CD or go to their website, I think I posted a link, I get the impression that in reality the tradition of lamentations was much broader than you’re aware of, at least at the end of the C15.  That’s one of the reasons why this release is so special.

I have to disagree with you about this release.  I don't think it is important but represents a departure of the tradition. 

The group is basing their concept on speculative interpretation even claiming to have found music of Brumel's which has not been supported by other scholars.  I have noticed that you are attracted to recordings which challenge a consensus interpretation especially if in the process it undermines a religious context.  Which has led me to believe that you might have a subconscious agenda working its way out in these posts.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2019, 06:38:59 AM »
I have to disagree with you about this release.  I don't think it is important but represents a departure of the tradition. 

The group is basing their concept on speculative interpretation even claiming to have found music of Brumel's which has not been supported by other scholars.  I have noticed that you are attracted to recordings which challenge a consensus interpretation especially if in the process it undermines a religious context.  Which has led me to believe that you might have a subconscious agenda working its way out in these posts.

It is true that I am a atheist. Militant in fact.

There can’t be a consensus interpretation in this case because no one else has ever performed these lamentations. I’m not suggesting that all lamentations are best performed in a dancing way.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 06:41:18 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 54336
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2019, 06:44:29 AM »
Nothing wrong with your being an atheist, of course. Militancy does no one, not even yourself any favors.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2019, 06:46:38 AM »
Nothing wrong with your being an atheist, of course. Militancy does no one, not even yourself any favors.

I’m sure you’re right.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13833
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2020, 01:42:30 AM »
Another cheerful radiant set of lamentations, rather beautiful too. Carpentras is a new name for me.

It looks like this is an area where the gap between our conception of death or the affect of music  and the c15 one is great, and where it’s a mistake to take a doctrinaire position


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline pjme

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 690
  • Location: Europa
Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2020, 06:10:46 AM »
Yesterday I spent some agreable time searching the Internet and some books on the "Magnificat". Listened to Bachs exuberant version (Herreweghe).
The text inspired many composers throughout the ages.
Monteverdi, Haydn, Mozart, Mendelssohn, Pachelbel....
Henri Du Mont
de Araujo
M.A. Charpentier (lovely sweet, old fashioned 1963 version on YT, conducted by Louis Martini/Erato  https://youtu.be/185k9fLiC4k)
Liszt / Dante symphony
Alan Hovhaness
Luciano Berio
Goffredo Petrassi
Jean Louis Florentz (very mysterious / https://youtu.be/sNUZbfweREI)
Heitor Villa Lobos

P.