Author Topic: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?  (Read 1810 times)

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Offline deprofundis

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Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« on: December 11, 2019, 04:18:54 PM »
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?

« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 04:23:06 PM by Carlo Gesualdo »

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 04:29:08 PM »
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?
Not easy music to get into? Not for me. As a pre-teenager the more turgid a Lamentation, Magnificat the more I liked it. However, when I reached an age where I begain to understand and consequently reject the sad-masochist theology at the heart of Christian belief systems I had to learn to ignore what was being sung about and only concentrate on the music. Not always easy.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 01:26:46 AM by dissily Mordentroge »

Online Mandryka

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 01:23:27 AM »
I love Laments more so than Magnificats so far...

But there are still exception for exceptional Magnificats take per.se Pierre de la rue and Nicolas Gombert did top notch magnificats, this is just my opinion, but try them see for yourself. But I would freely admit Magnificats are harder to get into, at least for me.

Laments or what I prefer above all, In this type of religious music, Laments seem captivating. What paved the way to my liking of Roland de Lassus outstanding Laments of Jeremiah , this was my first introduction to this genre from this starting point I discover lost of interesting music, heart whelming, may I say soulful.

Why i like these genres, the music gently drones away for long time and are mezmerizing whit beautiful moments.

There usually slow pace I kinda like music  that is slow pace and long. But not for everyone, like I would expect a Mozart fan would hate there slow pace and lithurgic contents...

Both Laments & Magnificats demand the listener patience, chilling out, there like a fruit you slowly peal one of these exotic fruits whit heavy skin you ripped, take the dragon fruit I.e, this is not easy music to get into has it demand patience, each listen reveal something news, you did not witness so far.

I can wash the dishes and clean up my home listening to I.e  J.s Bach or whatever, and still focus on the music in the background, but Magnificats and Lamentations, I need my couch to rest and concentration to slowly analyse these patterns or the layers of vocal music.

In other words harder to love, but so amazing. Not really party music but does it mater. Yet there formulated or format for the patient listener.

And yes like I said previously If I listen to these type of music I most hear them all, thus said and meaning, it demand time, take this I.e for facts when I listen to Gombert's Magnificats, I go to hear them in chronological order both album on Tallis Scholars, just like I would do whit Pierre de la Rue, so when I listen to them i Need 2 full hours and no phone ringing or stuff that would ruin it all.

Instrumental music perhaps is less demanding for the brain I don't know, like I said I can listen to Telemann and still do shores at home whiteout ruining the music virtues.

Perhaps it's a perception I have. What your cue on this?

I hope people understand the point of this post and what I'm trying to says Laments and Magnificats demand passion & devotion?

Have you heard these?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7bHXaF40Tmg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7bHXaF40Tmg</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/RD4P_XQVs4Y" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/RD4P_XQVs4Y</a>
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 01:30:27 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 01:34:04 AM »
I’m hoping to drag Carlo into the 20th Century. The best performance of this I’ve encountered was given at the funeral of Princess Diana.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMrxJfvSnn8

Or if that’s too ‘modern’ this may touch the spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzOmPUu-F_M
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 01:46:30 AM by dissily Mordentroge »

Online Biffo

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 01:40:06 AM »
I take it Carlo is talking about renaissance (and earlier) polyphony when he finds Magnificats dreamy. Suggest he tries Bach's Magnificat, that should wake him up.

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 01:50:00 AM »
I take it Carlo is talking about renaissance (and earlier) polyphony when he finds Magnificats dreamy. Suggest he tries Bach's Magnificat, that should wake him up.
Well here’s a good entry into heaven  - - -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8YYyp8LLo

Online Biffo

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 01:55:27 AM »
Well here’s a good entry into heaven  - - -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8YYyp8LLo

That is indeed very beautiful but the opening movement is rather more bracing.

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 01:57:44 AM »
That is indeed very beautiful but the opening movement is rather more bracing.
C’mon, we don’t want to frighten anyone.

Online Biffo

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 03:34:14 AM »
C’mon, we don’t want to frighten anyone.

If you say so but these sensitive people will need to keep away from Krenek's Lamentatio Jeremiae Prophetae ( Lamentations of Jeremiah)

Offline San Antone

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 04:58:40 AM »
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority. 

Online Biffo

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 05:13:29 AM »
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority.

I had forgotten the thread existed even though I was the last person to post on it back in October 2017

Offline San Antone

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2019, 06:26:45 AM »
I had forgotten the thread existed even though I was the last person to post on it back in October 2017

I searched the forum and found it.  The search feature is good to use, IMO, prior to creating a new topic thread. 

Online Mandryka

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2019, 08:39:18 AM »
But this isn't  a thread about Lamentations. It's a thread about Lamentations and Magnificats. The ways they resemble each other.
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Offline deprofundis

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2019, 08:53:41 AM »
Yes indeed Mandryka

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 02:21:37 PM »
There is already a thread for Lamentations https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24118.msg879029.html#msg879029

As is the case for most, if not all, of Carlo Gesualdo's "threads" - his originating post would almost always be better placed in an existing topic thread - often the Early Music Club.  I think it is preferable to have related discussions appearing in the same topic thread, as opposed to a multitude of threads for posts which would naturally be grouped together. 

But maybe I am in the minority.
So where do Magnificats come into that equation? I’m missing something along with this strange idea that’s popped into my head; magnificats cover a mulititude of sins.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 02:58:05 PM »
But this isn't  a thread about Lamentations. It's a thread about Lamentations and Magnificats. The ways they resemble each other.

So where do Magnificats come into that equation? I’m missing something along with this strange idea that’s popped into my head; magnificats cover a mulititude of sins.

Okay, I stand corrected. 

My understanding is that the Magnificat is usually sung at Vespers.  Whereas Lamentations, sometimes called Tenebrae one of the Thursday chants (Leçons de ténèbres is a French Baroqeu version), are based on the Book of Jeremiah and recited by Jews on Tisha b'Av in memory of the destruction of both Temples - are sung during Holy Week in preparation of Easter by Roman Catholics.  Lamentations are sorrowful  and the Magnificat is song of praise for the Virgin Mary, celebrating her role as mother of the Christ child.  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.

I am not sure there is a connection, but if others can explain one, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Offline dissily Mordentroge

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 03:01:41 PM »
Okay, I stand corrected. 
  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.
Neither is the church. I suspect however you meant Christian liturgy.


Online Biffo

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2019, 02:36:01 AM »
Okay, I stand corrected. 

My understanding is that the Magnificat is usually sung at Vespers.  Whereas Lamentations, sometimes called Tenebrae one of the Thursday chants (Leçons de ténèbres is a French Baroqeu version), are based on the Book of Jeremiah and recited by Jews on Tisha b'Av in memory of the destruction of both Temples - are sung during Holy Week in preparation of Easter by Roman Catholics.  Lamentations are sorrowful  and the Magnificat is song of praise for the Virgin Mary, celebrating her role as mother of the Christ child.  I am not on solid ground concerning Crhistian theology, but I think what I wrote is fairly accurate.

I am not sure there is a connection, but if others can explain one, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

That is a more or less accurate summary except that the Lamentations are part of Tenebrae along with the Resonsories (and other prayers) . Some composers set the Lamentations, others the Responsories, some set both (eg. Victoria).

Online Mandryka

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2019, 03:14:05 AM »
Is the text of the lamentations in prose or in verse? I think the magnificat is a prose piece, which creates special problems for a musical setting I guess.

By the way let me take the opportunity to recommend the strange strophic Quadris lamentations on this CD

« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 04:06:54 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline deprofundis

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Re: Lamentations, Magnificats is it you're cup of tea?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2019, 03:24:27 AM »
 Mandryka vous avez du gôut, j'y jetterai un coup d'oeil= translation dear Mandryka you have good taste I will check that out Love the work of Pierre de la rue.