Catharsis versus Transcendence?

[relm1]

Some of the most powerfully moving music are either examples of catharsis or transcendence.  These aren't the same and some works that are cathartic aren't transcendent and vice versa.  In general, these are complex works that take the listener on a journey where they end up in a very different place from where they started emotionally.  First, lets differentiate the two.

Catharsis is the process of capturing, holding, building, releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.

Transcendence: generally speaking, moving through a catharsis into a new experience or realm of experience beyond normal level.

For example:

Catharsis:
1.   Ralph Vaughn Williams: Symphony No. 9 final E major
2.   Sibelius: Symphony No. 7 final C major resolution
3.   Wagner: Tristan und Isolde (some could argue the catharsis was never achieved)
4.     Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (ending is an ambiguous version of the opening)

Transcendence (generally moves from darkness to light):
1.   Beethoven No. 5
2.   Beethoven No. 9
3.   Mahler: Symphony No. 1 ending
4.   Mahler: Symphony No. 2 last movement (especially last 5 minutes)
5.   Mahler: Symphony No. 3 finale
6.   Mahler: Symphony No. 8 finale
7.   Shostakovitch: Symphony No. 5, 7

Please, any other examples of either categories?  Please explain why you feel they qualify if they aren't generally accepted examples.

[Mirror Image]

I think you've posted this in the wrong part of the forum. It's more of a general classical discussion type of thread. Take note moderators.

[j winter]

Interesting thread idea.  The first work that popped into my mind was Strauss Death and Transfiguration, which I love but can't decide to which of your categories it belongs -- it very much does both things.

Or something like Bach's famous organ Passacaglia.  It's definitely transcendent by your definition, and yet it can certainly have a cathartic effect as it builds..... plenty to ponder, but I suspect that there are a lot of works, and highlights within works as you mention, that will overlap between the two...

[vandermolen]

I don't possess the musical knowledge to analyse key changes but, off the top of my head.
I'd agree about the end of VW Symphony No.9 - those great looming chords with harp accompaniment.

For catharsis I'd add the end of Stanley Bate's third and fourth symphony and Maximilian Steinberg's second. Also Rachaninov's 'plunge into the abyss' conclusion of his Symphony No.1

For transcendence I am thinking of the end of Allan Pettersson's Second Violin Concerto and Bax's Third Symphony.

I can't decide which category the end of Hilding Rosenberg's 2nd and 3rd symphonies come into but to me these are powerful, redemptive conclusion, as is the case with the Steinberg's symphony and Rubbra's 4th and 5th symphonies conclusions.

Interesting idea for a thread.

[Roasted Swan]

Some of the most powerfully moving music are either examples of catharsis or transcendence.  These aren't the same and some works that are cathartic aren't transcendent and vice versa.  In general, these are complex works that take the listener on a journey where they end up in a very different place from where they started emotionally.  First, lets differentiate the two.

Catharsis is the process of capturing, holding, building, releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.

Transcendence: generally speaking, moving through a catharsis into a new experience or realm of experience beyond normal level.

For example:

Catharsis:
1.   Ralph Vaughn Williams: Symphony No. 9 final E major
2.   Sibelius: Symphony No. 7 final C major resolution
3.   Wagner: Tristan und Isolde (some could argue the catharsis was never achieved)
4.     Richard Strauss: Also Sprach Zarathustra (ending is an ambiguous version of the opening)

Transcendence (generally moves from darkness to light):
1.   Beethoven No. 5
2.   Beethoven No. 9
3.   Mahler: Symphony No. 1 ending
4.   Mahler: Symphony No. 2 last movement (especially last 5 minutes)
5.   Mahler: Symphony No. 3 finale
6.   Mahler: Symphony No. 8 finale
7.   Shostakovitch: Symphony No. 5, 7

Please, any other examples of either categories?  Please explain why you feel they qualify if they aren't generally accepted examples.

A really interesting idea for a thread and one bound to throw up some great music!  Oddly, I agree with your definition of catharsis in music more than your examples.  Except for the end of Mahler Resurrection I would describe them as more triumphant (hollow irony to DSCH No.5 excepted perhaps) than cathartic - so they are an inevitable build towards the triumphal climax.  For me an ultimate cathartic moment would be the end of the 1st movement of Walton 1 which is more about release of pent up tension.  Or perhaps the end of Elgar 1 - which for me avoids triumphalism by being this extraordinary return to the opening theme with its "great hope for the future".  Or the end of Dvorak "New World" which reaches a cathartic climax before relaxing into a kind of peace.  Another one that gets me every time; in the Bach 3rd Solo Violin Partita - the Chaconne where the music moves from D minor to a radiant D major.... I get shivers even thinking about it

Transcendence for me is often associated with death or spiritual release - so the end of Strauss Don Quixote is remarkably moving in this way.  Or the "Dawn on the Somme" from Bliss' Morning Heroes.  More theatrical - the main theme of Swan Lake finally transforming from minor to major in the closing pages.  Such a simple musico/dramatic device but so effective. A less familiar work - not associated with death but other kinds of release is the remarkable violin concerto by the Swedish composer Tommie Haglund called "Hymns of the Night".

I'm sure as soon as I post this I'll think of another 10 examples!

[Sergeant Rock]

Catharsis is the process of capturing, holding, building, releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.

Please, any other examples of either categories?  Please explain why you feel they qualify if they aren't generally accepted examples.

The end of the third movement (which is also the end of part I) of Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 1 "Gothic" is for me the most cathartic moment in classical music. I'll let  Malcolm MacDonald explain:

"The music heaves like a plain on which great armies are embattled. Side-drum and upper woodwind beat out a manic pounding rhythm against which strings play a tough ostinato. Bassoons and tubas make a bass of the "saurian" theme in altered rhythm, while the rest of the brass have the lions's share of glory in a vast series of canonic entries. Trumpets and cornets ring out proudly above the storm, with a note of victory, a sense of triumph and exultation (which must have been Brian's own as he came to the end of this superb movement). The music soars in boundless confidence; harps, xylophone and organ enter with more ostinati; and suddenly it is the climax of the Part I. Brian flings the music back into the home key of D minor with a cadence of astonishing boldness:



From C major to D minor by way of F sharp, all in three triads: it is the sensational juxtaposition of C and F sharp that is so exhilarating. Brian has discovered his full powers. He can stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second: he can make a single cadence bear the dramatic weight of an entire movement. This is the victory of imagination over form.

Back in D minor the music rises to a pinnacle of grandeur before all the instruments hammer home the chord of D, fortissimo, only to be shut out with heart-stopping suddeness. There is a pause, then quietness--a high tremolo in the violins, a soft meditative glow from the bassoons, barely audible timpani to assure us the world is still spinning. Part I of the Gothic ends in a serenely spaced D major triad, adorned with harp arpeggios."


Sarge

[relm1]

I think you've posted this in the wrong part of the forum. It's more of a general classical discussion type of thread. Take note moderators.

Yes, I think you're right if anyone can help have it moved to the general classical discussion.

[relm1]

A really interesting idea for a thread and one bound to throw up some great music!  Oddly, I agree with your definition of catharsis in music more than your examples.  Except for the end of Mahler Resurrection I would describe them as more triumphant (hollow irony to DSCH No.5 excepted perhaps) than cathartic - so they are an inevitable build towards the triumphal climax.  For me an ultimate cathartic moment would be the end of the 1st movement of Walton 1 which is more about release of pent up tension.  Or perhaps the end of Elgar 1 - which for me avoids triumphalism by being this extraordinary return to the opening theme with its "great hope for the future".  Or the end of Dvorak "New World" which reaches a cathartic climax before relaxing into a kind of peace.  Another one that gets me every time; in the Bach 3rd Solo Violin Partita - the Chaconne where the music moves from D minor to a radiant D major.... I get shivers even thinking about it

Transcendence for me is often associated with death or spiritual release - so the end of Strauss Don Quixote is remarkably moving in this way.  Or the "Dawn on the Somme" from Bliss' Morning Heroes.  More theatrical - the main theme of Swan Lake finally transforming from minor to major in the closing pages.  Such a simple musico/dramatic device but so effective. A less familiar work - not associated with death but other kinds of release is the remarkable violin concerto by the Swedish composer Tommie Haglund called "Hymns of the Night".

I'm sure as soon as I post this I'll think of another 10 examples!

Totally fine to disagree with my examples but that is the lingering feelings those musical works mean to me.  Yes, the DSCH works are triumphs but had emerged through great gloom and despair hence transcending transformations.  That would be in contrast to great triumphant works of say Tchaikovsky that are more celebratory or festive but really hadn't come from great depths of despair. 

Would one consider Mahler 9 transcendent?  How about Scriabin Prometheus Poem of Fire as it reaches towards that orgiastic mystic chord?  How would you consider these?

[Jo498]

I tend to think in about four somewhat different categories: tragedy, resignation, triumph (after struggle, i.e. "per aspera ad astra"), transfiguration. The difference between the first two is that tragedy is more violent.
The difference between triumph and transfiguration is roughly that the latter does not have to be worked for. Although admittedly the differences are not always clear cut.

So with these four, I'd say:

tragedy: Brahms 4, Mahler 6
triumph (after struggle): Beethoven 5, 9, Brahms 1, Tchaikovsky 5, Mahler 1, 2, (5?, 7? they could be seen as ironic twists on this model)
resignation: Brahms 3, Tchaikovsky 6, Mahler LvdE, 9?
transfiguration: Mahler 3, 4, 8?, 9?

[aukhawk]

I would say the Beethoven examples are 'merely' late instances of the classical symphonic form which pretty much requires that the music ends in an up-beat fashion.  It's a formula - all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds, now go home and enjoy the rest of your evening, folks.

[Ratliff]

...and what about Apothesis?

[Jo498]

No, the older classical symphonies hardly ever extend the tension over the whole piece. Beethoven's 5th was something really new in this respect.
The older classical symphonies are mostly already "beat up" from the beginning or at least at the end of the first movement. Or they (rarely) keep the dramatic tone without resolution, like Mozart's g minor. Sure, there are a few with a turn to the major mode. But this often either happens already in the first movement, e.g. Haydn's #83 or it's not emphatically played out as a dramatic resolution, e.g. in Haydn's #95. In the latter the menuet returns to the minor mode but the finale is in C major from the beginning without any dramatic turn towards the major mode.

[André]

...and what about Apothesis?

« Apoteosi! » is one of the funniest moments in Verdi's Falstaff. But I'm not sure that's what you are looking for  .

[André]

I tend to think in about four somewhat different categories: tragedy, resignation, triumph (after struggle, i.e. "per aspera ad astra"), transfiguration. The difference between the first two is that tragedy is more violent.
The difference between triumph and transfiguration is roughly that the latter does not have to be worked for. Although admittedly the differences are not always clear cut.

So with these four, I'd say:

tragedy: Brahms 4, Mahler 6
triumph (after struggle): Beethoven 5, 9, Brahms 1, Tchaikovsky 5, Mahler 1, 2, (5?, 7? they could be seen as ironic twists on this model)
resignation: Brahms 3, Tchaikovsky 6, Mahler LvdE, 9?
transfiguration: Mahler 3, 4, 8?, 9?

Very nice post! Brahms 3 for 'resignation' is totally right, esp. as it is not as obvious as the other examples (in true brahmsian fashion).

[Jo498]

I'd probably say that "apotheosis" is a particular version of triumph or maybe a triumphal transfiguration Which is basically what the word describes. Very roughly it seems to me that  the christian (or generalized post-christian) transfiguration is a gift from god that also implies that the transfigured one leaves behind his earthly coil whereas the pagan apotheosis means that the hero is received on mount Olympus or Parnassus or whatever as the almost godlike figure he already was in life.

I thought of transfiguration more like a quieter thing. I guess many Bruckner endings come closer to apotheosis than to the more mundane triumph. And of course musically, the Bruckner endings are often triumphal transformations of earlier motives (although this also happens elsewhere)

[amw]

I think I (and most listeners) would consider the endings of Brahms 4, Mahler 6, etc to be strongly "cathartic"—ie they are immensely satisfying in spite of their "tragic" nature and seem to provide a resolution of some kind. Whereas other "tragic" endings are not cathartic because they feel fundamentally unresolved (eg Sibelius 4, Prokofiev 6) and perhaps irresolvable. Transcendence implies moving beyond our need for/expectation of resolution into a completely different plane. The two examples that would first come to my mind would be the two movements of Beethoven's Op. 111—catharsis in the first movement, transcendence in the second. Or for a perhaps slightly more contentious example of transcendence: the replacement finale to Op. 130, which carries on with a 156-bar coda after the formal sonata rondo structure is over, a coda that consists of little more than new permutations of the rondo theme but has such a sense of joy and exhilaration that we (those of us who like the movement, anyway) feel transported and the various unresolved contradictions of the piece no longer seem to matter.

[Jo498]

The original katharsis in the Greek tragedy was of course not a positive ending but a tragic one and the tragedy was supposed to "purify" the spectator because he vicariously lived through the terrible events that happened to the characters on stage. So I completely agree that stuff like Brahms 4 and Mahler 6 is closest to this original meaning.
Unresolved/unresolvable seems a fairly new concept. In both classical and modern tragedy one could usually force a resolution by killing a sufficient number of characters...

[André]

I'd probably say that "apotheosis" is a particular version of triumph or maybe a triumphal transfiguration Which is basically what the word describes. Very roughly it seems to me that  the christian (or generalized post-christian) transfiguration is a gift from god that also implies that the transfigured one leaves behind his earthly coil whereas the pagan apotheosis means that the hero is received on mount Olympus or Parnassus or whatever as the almost godlike figure he already was in life.

I thought of transfiguration more like a quieter thing. I guess many Bruckner endings come closer to apotheosis than to the more mundane triumph. And of course musically, the Bruckner endings are often triumphal transformations of earlier motives (although this also happens elsewhere)

The codas of the 5th and 8th symphonies are musical apotheoses par excellence.

[relm1]

The original katharsis in the Greek tragedy was of course not a positive ending but a tragic one and the tragedy was supposed to "purify" the spectator because he vicariously lived through the terrible events that happened to the characters on stage. So I completely agree that stuff like Brahms 4 and Mahler 6 is closest to this original meaning.
Unresolved/unresolvable seems a fairly new concept. In both classical and modern tragedy one could usually force a resolution by killing a sufficient number of characters...

Tell me more please.

[vandermolen]

I consider the end of Viteszlav Novak's 'The Storm' to be one of the great spiritual catharsis I have encountered in music, especially in the Supraphon recording. We need (or maybe I need  ) a new recording of it.