The Second Viennese School --- Who Do You Prefer?

Started by Mirror Image, February 11, 2020, 07:15:03 AM

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What composer do you prefer?

Schoenberg
11 (40.7%)
Berg
10 (37%)
Webern
6 (22.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

André

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2020, 06:50:36 AM
:laugh:

The irony, indeed  ;).

The subjective perception of beauty or value in art is worthy of some discussion, though. There's a saying that goes « beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder ». A work of art has zero intrinsic value if it stands in isolation, away from the appreciation of the human brain. It's only through that filter that it becomes more than an inert object. And since all human beings are different, the appreciation is bound to vary from one individual to another. So, yes: it's all about ourselves, isn't it?

Florestan

#41
Quote from: André on February 13, 2020, 07:06:01 AM
The irony, indeed  ;).

The subjective perception of beauty or value in art is worthy of some discussion, though. There's a saying that goes « beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder ». A work of art has zero intrinsic value if it stands in isolation, away from the appreciation of the human brain. It's only through that filter that it becomes more than an inert object. And since all human beings are different, the appreciation is bound to vary from one individual to another. So, yes: it's all about ourselves, isn't it?

Great post. Of course it's all about ourselves. The notion that one can appreciate a piece of music in abstracto, divorced from any personal involvement, is absurd.

And: nobody is under any obligation whatever to like, or even to try liking, everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discovering one's comfort zone and gravitating towards it most of the time. Life's too short to waste one's time on things that one doesn't enjoy in the hope that someday one will eventually enjoy them. There's also nothing wrong with doing exacctly that, either. There's no universal approach to music, each of us takes the one that is most suitable to their tastes and aesthetic preferences. The big rpoblem appears when one tries to impose his approach on anybody else.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mirror Image

#42
Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2020, 07:10:53 AM
Great post. Of course it's all about ourselves. The notion that one can appreciate a piece of music in abstracto, divorced from any personal involvement, is absurd.

And: nobody is under any obligation whatever to like, or even to try liking, everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discovering one's comfort zone and gravitating towards it most of the time. Life's too short to waste one's time on things that one doesn't enjoy in the hope that someday one will eventually enjoy them. There's also nothing wrong with doing exacctly that, either. There's no universal approach to music, each of us takes the one that is most suitable to their tastes and aesthetic preferences. The big rpoblem appears when one tries to impose his approach on anybody else.

It's true that you're under no obligation to like everything, but I do think if one is passionate about say '20th Century music', then one should, at the very least, try some music from the Second Viennese School. Sometimes if we don't try to understand something, then we're missing out on music that could possibly mean a lot to us because we didn't put away our expectations that this or that 'didn't work for us'. Life is, indeed, short, but I think if one is passionate enough and musically curious at all, then these composers could have a positive instead of a negative effect on the listener. I'm passionate about music from the 20th Century, so I knew that, at some point, I was going to have face one of these composers, especially given that they're giants of this particular period (and that's not really up for debate --- it's a well-known and established fact at this juncture in music history). Listen to what you want, when you want, but if you don't at least try to appreciate music that doesn't sit well with you on initial hearing (or even multiple hearings), then perhaps an adjustment on the part of the listener is in order. It's not a one-way street after all, there are multiple avenues in understanding a composer that we find 'difficult' or simply 'unaccessible'. Of course, something could not be for you and, yes, there's no harm in admitting it as long as you, again, tried to enjoy it.

Crudblud

Talk about an impossible choice! Well, between Webern and Schoenberg at least. I don't dislike Berg, but I can only really point to Sieben frühe Lieder, Lyric Suite, the Piano Sonata and the Violin Concerto as having any real significance for me. The operas I don't get, but opera in general isn't my thing, especially not now that I don't really have the time to commit to it.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Florestan on February 12, 2020, 11:42:04 PM
:D

One cannot like everything. My dislike of this music is not a value judgement, though.

Very true.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: Crudblud on February 13, 2020, 08:02:24 AM
Talk about an impossible choice! Well, between Webern and Schoenberg at least. I don't dislike Berg, but I can only really point to Sieben frühe Lieder, Lyric Suite, the Piano Sonata and the Violin Concerto as having any real significance for me. The operas I don't get, but opera in general isn't my thing, especially not now that I don't really have the time to commit to it.

Great to see you, Dan!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: Wanderer on February 13, 2020, 03:35:50 AM
Some good adjectives mentioned so far that describe much of this music: cerebral (the bad kind), cold, sterile, over-intellectualized. Much of this comes down to an, as mentioned, unrelatable musical language; but also, I feel, to often not enough talent or musical substance to make this musical language work. Much of this music may look good on paper, however its failure to sound good, or as good as it looks on paper, and its subsequently natural effect of alienating and/or repelling the listener seems to eternally puzzle some people. No matter, they'll get it sooner or later. Or not.


My dear Tasos, I know you will take my respectful opposition in good heart. While there is some truth underneath your remarks, both "unrelatable musical language" and its "natural repellant effect" are too absolute. Too many listeners enjoy the music on even an untutored hearing, for us to ascribe natural repellancy to it. Some find the language an obstacle, others do not.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Crudblud

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2020, 08:08:32 AM
Great to see you, Dan!
Hey there, Karl! I'll be posting here more regularly now, hopefully.

Jo498

Quote from: Wanderer on February 13, 2020, 03:35:50 AM
Some good adjectives mentioned so far that describe much of this music: cerebral (the bad kind), cold, sterile, over-intellectualized. Much of this comes down to an, as mentioned, unrelatable musical language; but also, I feel, to often not enough talent or musical substance to make this musical language work. Much of this music may look good on paper, however its failure to sound good
I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder although many listeners find also later Berg sensually and emotionally very appealing and not predominantly cerebral.

So feel free to dislike their later music as too cerebral or experimental or whatever but I think that their capabilities in a somewhat more traditional style are clearly documented by their earlier pieces.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Wanderer

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2020, 08:23:28 AM

My dear Tasos, I know you will take my respectful opposition in good heart. While there is some truth underneath your remarks, both "unrelatable musical language" and its "natural repellant effect" are too absolute. Too many listeners enjoy the music on even an untutored hearing, for us to ascribe natural repellancy to it. Some find the language an obstacle, others do not.

We do not disagree, my friend, and I am not absolute in my comments, hence the several qualifiers in my post. The language in itself is not repellent (in lesser hands it can feel unrelatable, which is a different thing), but many works unfortunately are, since the talent or inspiration needed to elevate them or make them work is not always there. I like many works by Schoenberg and Berg and I do not ascribe them in this category. And I also find that Skalkottas, for instance, has truly managed to make the language sing with humanity, inventiveness and brilliance.


Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2020, 11:46:46 PM
I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder...

My post is not referring to Schoenberg, Berg and Webern specifically, but to all composers writing in the idiom. That said, works like Webern's Im Sommerwind or Berg's piano sonata do not reveal any extraordinary amount of talent, either. But Gurre-Lieder is a great favourite.

And "another Reger"? We hardly needed the first one.  0:)

Karl Henning

Although I affirm my vote for Schoenberg, there's no denying that, of late, Berg has given me a run for my money, albeit money spent some time ago ....
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 16, 2020, 03:17:25 PM
Although I affirm my vote for Schoenberg, there's no denying that, of late, Berg has given me a run for my money, albeit money spent some time ago ....

Indeed. And only if he had lived longer. There's no telling what richness would have poured forth from him.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2020, 11:46:46 PM
I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder although many listeners find also later Berg sensually and emotionally very appealing and not predominantly cerebral.

So feel free to dislike their later music as too cerebral or experimental or whatever but I think that their capabilities in a somewhat more traditional style are clearly documented by their earlier pieces.

Schoenberg demonstrated a mastery in the Late-Romantic idiom. For any listener to dispute this, shows an unwillingness to accept what is clearly a misjudgment and lack of understanding on their part. How could anyone listen to Pelleas und Melisande, for example, and say, "That's nice enough, but not very substantial or even important." For this listener, ALL periods of Schoenberg are substantial and important and while I do understand that he's not everyone's cup of tea, I think for anyone to not look at his achievements objectively and make claims that couldn't be any further the truth is what I find particularly disappointing.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Wanderer on February 14, 2020, 04:54:52 AM
We do not disagree, my friend, and I am not absolute in my comments, hence the several qualifiers in my post. The language in itself is not repellent (in lesser hands it can feel unrelatable, which is a different thing), but many works unfortunately are, since the talent or inspiration needed to elevate them or make them work is not always there. I like many works by Schoenberg and Berg and I do not ascribe them in this category. And I also find that Skalkottas, for instance, has truly managed to make the language sing with humanity, inventiveness and brilliance.

That's interesting as I find Skalkottas to be one of the least interesting composers to come out of this school. I think Dallapiccola is one of the most successful composers outside the Viennese triumvirate.

Wanderer

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 09:26:25 AM
That's interesting as I find Skalkottas to be one of the least interesting composers to come out of this school.

You have a certain notoriety for - let's not say flimsy, let's say - rather transient pronouncements. Give it some time and you may feel differently in the future. Skalkottas' music is certainly of extraordinary quality.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 03:56:44 PM
You have a certain notoriety for - let's not say flimsy, let's say - rather transient pronouncements. Give it some time and you may feel differently in the future. Skalkottas' music is certainly of extraordinary quality.

And late Schoenberg is of extraordinary quality --- give it some time and you may feel differently in future. :)

relm1

Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:24:53 AM
I like the Gurru-Leider or at least the opening of it and the powerful 'A Survivor from Warsaw' but that's about it.

I don't buy this.  You will love the entire Gurrelieder.  It is incredibly beautiful and has a magnificent finale ala Novak's Storm.  Please listen again.  Check out my favorite recording, Berlin RSO/Riccardo Chailly.

Wanderer

#57
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 04:11:11 PM
And late Schoenberg is of extraordinary quality...

I think so, as well. You need to read posts more carefully.
Interestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which makes their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.






Mirror Image

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
I think so, as well. You need to read posts more carefully.
Interestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which make their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.

Well, I've tried with Skalkottas, but have yet to connect with his music. Maybe one day, maybe not. Anyway, let's get back to the Second Viennese School.

Wanderer