Author Topic: The impact of music streaming services  (Read 2893 times)

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Offline MusicTurner

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2020, 12:52:44 AM »
There's no doubt that CDs and LPs will be gradually less available for new releases. But on a personal note, I don't think I'll be joining the streaming trend; I consider myself lucky, having been able to establish a rather satisfying physical collection of music from all ages & also, I am generally less interested in new releases nowadays. Moreover, you still have the second-hand market for collecting. I did try some downloading services like e-music for a while, getting some rare repertoire and then transferring it to CDRs, but I don't find myself listening to those files now.

The only problem with the physical collection would be moving to a location very far away, say to Southern Europe or the like. That would be costly. But I'd still be bringing other, accumulated stuff with me, so expenses would be there anyway.

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2020, 02:18:32 AM »
Things becoming unavailable I can understand (and yes, this is one reason I will always go and buy the things I actually want to keep). And if for some reason a label pulls all its material then this could have a big effect.

But albums on your playlist changing into other albums... that frankly sounds like some kind of error. I don't use Qobuz (they're not available in Australia) but if I were you I would be contacting them rather than writing about it here.

A third of my 2 main playlists "partially gone" just like that is surely making me re-think it all !

Re the changing of CD, I do not know which CD has been replaced as my tracking beforehand was too sketchy. Now that I have a proper Excel sheet with each playlist, CD, label, and position number within, I'll be able to find out next time it happens. I "think" for one of them, it might have been Maria Joao Pires Vol.1 of Mozart sonatas on Denon. It's been replaced by "Mozart Famous Pieces" by the Concertgebouw chamber Orchestra on Pentatone !
Olivier

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2020, 02:31:27 AM »
Olivier,

Thank you for warning us about these problems!  Wondering why Chandos changed things at it's end?  My guess would be that they feel that they are not making enough money off of the streams and that they feel that they can make more money off of selling the downloads directly themselves.  Does Qobuz offer the option to purchase downloads too?  If so, at how high-quality of a format?  I hate compressed music myself.  Even on an old iPod touch, I only transferred over music to it that was in Apple's Lossless format.  Uses up more space, I know.

PD

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2020, 02:32:33 AM »
Arrrrrrrrgggghghgh!  I hate this sort of thing.  I went looking for examples, and sure enough, Thomson Bax 3 on Chandos, the symphony tracks are only available as samples (greyed out). 

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115845424

(On the other hand, I'm not sure if it might not have been that way all along, as I have this on physical disc and wouldn't have looked at it before.)

Odd that Chandos new releases (e.g. the Wilson/Sinfonia of London stuff) are not like this.  I wonder what their policy actually is about what to make only available as samples.  Here's another Parry set of songs with only 5 songs greyed out.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115243121

Hickox's recording of the 1913 A London Symphony, the symphony greyed out:

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0095115990223

Sounds like a Qobuz database problem.  Also having used the service for more than a year, I note there are sometimes QC problems with the tracks themselves, particularly truncated tracks.  But that might be the labels' fault.

It's just really odd and erratic. Chandos' Overtures from the British Isles Vol.1 is now completely greyed out, Vol.2 is still fully available.
If Chandos was running a temporary sale on their website, you would understand such reasoning but that's not the case.

Even Naxos is the same random pattern. I listened to the complete Tubin symphonies set over a few weeks period (33 tracks in full). Only 11 of them full available now.

Just no pattern. I thought maybe it might have to do with how long it had been in your playlist but that doesn't even match either. Over the last 3-4 days, I listened to 2 Volumes of Krommer's CPO cycle and added them to the playlist. Some of the tracks got greyed out Friday and now back in full again today.


Olivier

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2020, 02:38:59 AM »
Olivier,

Thank you for warning us about these problems!  Wondering why Chandos changed things at it's end?  My guess would be that they feel that they are not making enough money off of the streams and that they feel that they can make more money off of selling the downloads directly themselves.  Does Qobuz offer the option to purchase downloads too?  If so, at how high-quality of a format?  I hate compressed music myself.  Even on an old iPod touch, I only transferred over music to it that was in Apple's Lossless format.  Uses up more space, I know.

PD

That's a possibility re Chandos.

Yes you can buy downloads from Qobuz. All of them are available in CD quality (Lossless 16 bit/44.1 kHz (FLAC, ALAC, WMA, AIFF, WAV)). Some of them are available in High Res (Lossless 24 bits 96 kHz (FLAC, ALAC, WMA, AIFF, WAV)).
Olivier

Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2020, 02:59:58 AM »
To be honest I've thought before that some of your problems with Qobuz are because they are trying to be both a streaming platform and a place you buy downloads.

Apple had some problems when they tried to shift from iTunes to Apple Music, but seem to have sorted this out. And while it's still a little annoying occasionally I generally now don't have any problems being an iTunes customer without ever having been an Apple Music subscriber, apart from relatively discreet prompts offering Apple Music.

But some of your stories from Qobuz sound as if they keep shifting between wanting you to stream things and wanting you to buy things. Rather confusing.

In other words, you might not have some of these issues to the same extent if you used a plain and simple streaming service that wasn't trying to sell you tracks. Deezer, Spotify, or for classical-only Primephonic or Idagio.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:02:27 AM by Madiel »
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Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2020, 03:18:07 AM »
To be honest I've thought before that some of your problems with Qobuz are because they are trying to be both a streaming platform and a place you buy downloads.

Apple had some problems when they tried to shift from iTunes to Apple Music, but seem to have sorted this out. And while it's still a little annoying occasionally I generally now don't have any problems being an iTunes customer without ever having been an Apple Music subscriber, apart from relatively discreet prompts offering Apple Music.

But some of your stories from Qobuz sound as if they keep shifting between wanting you to stream things and wanting you to buy things. Rather confusing.

In other words, you might not have some of these issues to the same extent if you used a plain and simple streaming service that wasn't trying to sell you tracks.

Madiel,
i take it Itunes is for your music library purposes, correct ? and Apple Music for streaming only ? sorry, not an Apple person  ;)  If you are not using Apple Music, which platform do you use instead please ? And what is your experience in terms of availability or disappearing tracks like that ? and in terms of classical music choice ?
Olivier

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2020, 03:21:00 AM »
Deezer, Spotify, or for classical-only Primephonic or Idagio.

Just seen your edit after my reply. Thank you, will have a think and a look at those.
Olivier

Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2020, 03:36:35 AM »
Just seen your edit after my reply. Thank you, will have a think and a look at those.

No problem.

For the record, I subscribe to Deezer and Primephonic.

For a specifically classical service, I think Primephonic and Idagio both have merit, with slightly different strengths, and are well worth supporting. Certainly, searching is a LOT more effective because they are services that understand you might want to look up a composer, a performer, a work or an album.

The data and catalogue are not perfect, but they are lot better than what I get for classical on Deezer (and I will always remember with Spotify that the supposed most popular piece for Samuel Barber was "The Barber of Seville"). And with Primephonic I have found they are quick to respond when I point out an error. With Deezer I had been waiting for over 6 months for them to fix a completely scrambled album and then gave up.

So if the main thing you want is classical I would suggest trying both Primephonic and Idagio and seeing which you prefer. Primephonic offers a trial for a couple of weeks, with full service, and then you pay if you want to keep it using it (from memory, it was NOT one of those that just automatically becomes payable, they actually wait until the trial is over to get your credit card). Idagio on the other hand has a slightly limited free mode which you can use for as long as you like, and you pay to get the full service.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:39:55 AM by Madiel »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2020, 03:44:19 AM »


Saturday, I then experienced the first major downside of streaming. When I went back to my British playlist, a fair chunk of my selected CDs had become partially or fully unavailable,most particularly Chandos (which you can imagine is a chunk of that playlist with Lyrita). none of the Bax's were fully available with most of the tracks reduced to 30s samples. (edit: quick count: 17/50 CDs "British" affected, 12/40 "Other" affected). Another example, Hubert Parry symphonies, 21 tracks in total, now only 6 or 7 tracks fully available. This also happened on some Naxos, Toccata and CPO CDs. If this happens to Lyrita too, well, that's that playlist is completely useless.



Either you've been unlucky or I've been lucky. This has happened to me in 10 years or so of use, but not much.





Another downside in the last couple of days is also that 2 or 3 CD's, actually saved in my playlist, have changed to completely different CD's of the same composers !!



I can't remember that happening, though I have to say I don't use playlists much and when I do it's via the Logitech Media Server interface.

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Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2020, 04:19:32 AM »
No problem.

For the record, I subscribe to Deezer and Primephonic.

For a specifically classical service, I think Primephonic and Idagio both have merit, with slightly different strengths, and are well worth supporting. Certainly, searching is a LOT more effective because they are services that understand you might want to look up a composer, a performer, a work or an album.

The data and catalogue are not perfect, but they are lot better than what I get for classical on Deezer (and I will always remember with Spotify that the supposed most popular piece for Samuel Barber was "The Barber of Seville"). And with Primephonic I have found they are quick to respond when I point out an error. With Deezer I had been waiting for over 6 months for them to fix a completely scrambled album and then gave up.

So if the main thing you want is classical I would suggest trying both Primephonic and Idagio and seeing which you prefer. Primephonic offers a trial for a couple of weeks, with full service, and then you pay if you want to keep it using it (from memory, it was NOT one of those that just automatically becomes payable, they actually wait until the trial is over to get your credit card). Idagio on the other hand has a slightly limited free mode which you can use for as long as you like, and you pay to get the full service.

Thank you again, I appreciate the feedback on those options. Had a quick look at Primephonic, same prices as Qobuz, Idagio is cheaper. I think for now, I will stick to Qobuz to run out my extensive explore list as a first step to build a concrete purchase/consideration list. After that, I'll re-assess if full-on streaming is still of viable use for me with those two options.

Whilst impressed by the choice to my areas of interest (Lyrita and others), Qobuz's tagging is being a bit erratic as well. It was a bug bear sometimes (multiples entries of same albums, tagging by performer, not composer, making sorting by releases impossible, etc...).

Now it is a minor bug bear compared to losing track availability ! I guess it is a blessing in disguise that it happened before I plunge down that route more comprehensively. Food for thought definitely. 
Olivier

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2020, 04:25:55 AM »
Either you've been unlucky or I've been lucky. This has happened to me in 10 years or so of use, but not much.

I can't remember that happening, though I have to say I don't use playlists much and when I do it's via the Logitech Media Server interface.

Just pot luck I guess, dependent fully on labels' whim and what your areas of interests are. Thought I'd share to make people aware in case they consider Qobuz.  At least, the timing of it was of "benefit".
Olivier

Offline CRCulver

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2020, 11:33:54 AM »
I ripped the bulk of my collection to FLAC years ago and those CDs have only been gathering dust on the shelf. But when I recently took down some CDs for some reason, I was really amazed by how good and detailed some of the liner notes are. Some of these booklets helped me get more out of music I had long since grown used to, as if I discovered them all over again.

I worry that a lot of insight and useful commentary on pieces is being lost, because while the audio of those old releases might be made available for streaming, the liner notes themselves aren't.

Offline Daverz

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2020, 10:43:50 AM »
Now it's Bis that has greyed out tracks on Qobuz, e.g.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/7318599920283

Also, I can't put the "Studio" quality download for this album in my cart at Chandos.net:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/BI%202028

Offline Old San Antone

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2020, 11:11:10 AM »
I tried Qobuz but unsubscribed. 

1) too expensive
2) too much music I wanted was missing
3) purported high(er) audio quality was undetectable by me

I like Spotify

I have recently begun a extended listening journey of Mozart's Die Zauberfl├Âte  and found dozens of recordings, all of the ones people have recommended as well as a number they didn't.  This is an invaluable service since I would never purchase these recordings just to try them out.  Complaints about the lack of CD booklets or librettos is easily fixed by a quick Internet search, or purchasing (as I did) a short "guide to the opera".  I have plenty of books to supplement the recordings I wish to listen to and certainly do not need to purchase a CD for that purpose.

Streaming has completely satisfied my need to hear a wide variety of music, and to spend less in the process.

Any purchases these days are for those rare box sets which I really want to have on my shelf, some high quality vinyl, or for those recordings which are unavailable to stream - if I really can't live without hearing the music (which is a rare thing).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 12:02:09 PM by Old San Antone »

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2020, 12:05:43 PM »
Now it's Bis that has greyed out tracks on Qobuz, e.g.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/7318599920283


A few of them and all...just had a look at my exploring playlist...Magnard, Tubin, Wiren...A good handful of CPO's as well.

I think I'll drop Qobuz in the next month of two once i have sampled the 250-odd CDs I have left in that list. By then, that will be 99% of the maiden composers I wanted to sample done with and I will have quite a substantial potential purchase list (already large) to dip into over the next few months, from stuff explored and liked. I'll see how I feel about continuing a sole streaming platform then.
Olivier

Offline Brewski

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2020, 11:07:58 AM »
I have not used services like Qobuz, Idagio, Bandcamp, or Spotify (yet), mostly because live performances remain my highest priority. With the advent of COVID, many musicians have opted to do livestreams -- either on YouTube, Facebook, or on their own channels -- and for the moment, this is proving an excellent substitute for live concerts. (Granted, some afternoons the whole thing just makes me sad, when it looks like in-person events in the United States likely won't be returning until sometime next year.)

But with so much available (just bought a ticket for a November concert by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra), at the moment, I'm satisfied. I do have a much-reduced CD collection (maybe 2,000), but haven't listened to any of them in months.

--Bruce
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2020, 04:02:30 AM »
I have not used services like Qobuz, Idagio, Bandcamp, or Spotify (yet), mostly because live performances remain my highest priority. With the advent of COVID, many musicians have opted to do livestreams -- either on YouTube, Facebook, or on their own channels -- and for the moment, this is proving an excellent substitute for live concerts. (Granted, some afternoons the whole thing just makes me sad, when it looks like in-person events in the United States likely won't be returning until sometime next year.)

But with so much available (just bought a ticket for a November concert by the Detroit Symphony Orchestra), at the moment, I'm satisfied. I do have a much-reduced CD collection (maybe 2,000), but haven't listened to any of them in months.

--Bruce
Know what you mean about feeling sad about all of the current changes--including missing live events.  Wondering how *musicians are able to make a living these days?  And all of the other people effected too like, for example, sound and lighting pros, theaters, ticket sellers, etc.?
*particularly those with, shall we say, 'shallow pockets'?

PD

p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?

Offline Madiel

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2020, 04:22:13 AM »
p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?

This would not be lawful. I know people do it, but for all the laws I know, you're not allowed to keep a rip if you no longer own the CD (and that's in the places where ripping itself is legal).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 04:26:25 AM by Madiel »
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Offline Brewski

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Re: The impact of music streaming services
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2020, 04:25:44 PM »
p.s.  By the way, may I ask as to why you reduced your CD collection so much?  Did you rip most of it to a hard drive?

Sure, and no, ripping wasn't the reason. Recently I made a major move, and took a good, hard look at shelves of maybe 6,000-8,000 CDs. Most of them were gathering dust. I approached one of the few remaining bricks-and-mortar stores left in NYC, but they weren't interested. My collection was (and is) heavy on 20th and 21st-century works, and these days, you can't even give them away (e.g., to a music school library).

So I saved about 1,000-2,000, being pretty ruthless in culling.

Until COVID arrived, I was hearing so much live music, anyway (2-3 concerts a week), that I didn't really listen to recordings that often, except for new releases.

--Bruce
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