Author Topic: Coronavirus thread  (Read 234222 times)

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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5260 on: September 20, 2021, 02:37:42 AM »
Some encouraging news:  https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/20/health/pfizer-child-vaccine-data/index.html

"Covid-19 vaccine for 5- to 11-year-olds is safe and shows 'robust' antibody response, Pfizer says"

PD

Offline greg

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5261 on: September 20, 2021, 10:51:02 AM »
The can of dewormers

I was one who a while ago laughed at people taking "horse dewormers", but now my attitude has changed after hearing more information and having a more nyanced picture. I am surprised how badly Ivermectin has been dealt with in the media. I haven't seen anyone give the "whole picture" of it. It is like getting one piece of a puzzle somewhere and then you have to solve that puzzle yourself.

(1) Some people seem to use Ivermectin as a political tool to point out that anti-vaxxers are taking "horse paste."
(2) Ivermectin has different doses for humans and horses. Human dose is safe for humans. Horse dose is NOT.
(3) Ivermectin is a generic drug meaning Big Pharma can't do price gouging with it.
(4) Pharmacies have been told not to sell Ivermectin (that's why some people get horse version instead!)
(5) Almost half of FDA's funding comes from the companies it regulates (insane!).
(6) The effectiveness of Ivermectin (for humans) to battle Covid-19 is not clear.
(7) Monoclonal antibodies seems to be the best* Covid-19 treatment (but only rich people have access to it).
(9) Some people use Ivermectin as a scam to cash in (consultation fee).

It has taken so long to get a better picture of the dewormer issue! It is dangerous to jump to conclusions too early, because you never know what kind of agenda people have. It is as if everyone is after money these days and nobody is interested about the truth. Ivermectin seems to be an issue so versatile, that any group of people can look at it from a particular angle and use it cynically to advance their agenda  :-X If I am wrong with any of the points listed above please educate me.

* After getting fully vaccinated, which is a no-brainer at this point given the data of how well the vaccines work.
That's good that you did your own research instead of relying on whatever the mainstream narrative is.

Nuance doesn't sell, after all. Emotion does. What you wrote wouldn't make money. But "look at these dumb anti-vaxxers taking horse dewormer, let's point and laugh!" does sell.
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Online Holden

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5262 on: September 20, 2021, 11:39:55 AM »
Some encouraging news:  https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/20/health/pfizer-child-vaccine-data/index.html

"Covid-19 vaccine for 5- to 11-year-olds is safe and shows 'robust' antibody response, Pfizer says"

PD

I'm not surprised. As has been seen in other virus outbreaks over the last century, the response of young children has always been the strongest and apparently a key to longer term immunity for the whole community. There is a small body of research on this subject and maybe it needs to be looked at in more depth.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5263 on: September 20, 2021, 02:00:11 PM »
That's good that you did your own research instead of relying on whatever the mainstream narrative is.

Nuance doesn't sell, after all. Emotion does. What you wrote wouldn't make money. But "look at these dumb anti-vaxxers taking horse dewormer, let's point and laugh!" does sell.

Maybe not researched, but after following the Ivermectin debate for a few weeks some knowledge has accumulated.
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Online SimonNZ

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5264 on: September 20, 2021, 04:12:39 PM »
ffs...how about you take some and tell us how it works out?

You wont want to read something in contract to following YT infotainment, but here is a succinct overview of the current research into Ivermectin (I'm going to quote the article in full, but if you follow the link you see the text has hyperlinks leading you to all the cited studies and tests):

Ivermectin — whether formulated for humans or horses — is not a treatment for COVID-19

"Hydroxychloroquine. Remdesivir. Ivermectin. Several medications have been touted as miracle drugs for COVID-19 throughout the pandemic, often without solid medical evidence supporting their use. Almost like fad diets, arguments for these controversial treatments have come and gone, with ivermectin most recently taking the stage.

As a physician and COVID-19 genetics researcher, I am concerned. No substance we consume, whether one of these medications or a nutritional supplement, lacks risk. Self-medicating in an uncontrolled setting without consultation with medical professionals endangers people, especially when evidence suggests these medications do not help prevent or treat COVID-19.

Ivermectin is used to treat several types of parasitic infections. It works by interfering with a parasite’s nervous system to paralyze and ultimately kill it.

The research
Ivermectin has been getting recent attention as test-tube studies have demonstrated that it can prevent the virus from continuing to grow. This has motivated clinical trials to determine if these results could apply in humans as well.

While such results are promising, experiments in a test tube are a lot different from clinical trials, given that you can test drug dosages that would be unsafe or unattainable in humans to determine if an effect exists. Such phenomena are why we so often hear about experiments claiming new cancer cures with less progress in the treatment of our friends and family.

What does the data show about ivermectin for treating COVID-19 in people? There are some promising findings in critically ill patients, but more high-quality data needs to be collected, particularly for those with mild or silent COVID. That’s currently in progress.

The risks
The high-quality aspect of the research is crucial because ivermectin is not without its risks. While ivermectin is generally well tolerated and safe at dosages recommended by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), around three per cent of people can experience itchy skin, general itchiness or dizziness. At these doses, individuals can, in rare circumstances, have seizures or a life-threatening immune reaction. If one takes the blood thinner warfarin (Coumadin), ivermectin can interact with this medication and increase the risk of bleeding.

It is important to consult licensed health-care providers about medications and their potential harms because an increased risk of bleeding can, in extreme cases, translate into bleeding in the brain, which can be life-threatening. Your family doctor or nurse practitioner has the training required to determine if a medication is appropriate and, if so, whether they should decrease your dose to keep you safe.

Such a safety profile means that if ivermectin ultimately does prove to help treat COVID-19, your doctor could prescribe it, when appropriate, with a reasonable amount of confidence that its benefits will outweigh its potential harms. It is generally not being prescribed for COVID-19 outside of clinical trials now because evidence of it helping people is not yet there.

Good intentions, but unsafe choices

Recently, non-medical individuals have been taking this data inappropriately into their own hands and have self-prescribed and self-medicated with veterinary ivermectin, guided by social media personalities and politicians. These well-intentioned victims have been overdosing themselves with the medication and have been increasingly appearing in emergency departments.

This behaviour is dangerous because all medications (and nutritional supplements) have a higher risk of side-effects as you increase the dosage. The risk of seizure and life-threatening immune reactions are low at FDA-approved dosages of ivermectin. The chance is much higher when you significantly increase the dose, which is what would happen if you took amounts intended for mammals larger than you. It is not safe — a sentiment echoed by the FDA.

The benefit of the doubt
COVID-19 is terrifying and has left many feeling powerless over a deadly infection. Vaccination is the best treatment for COVID-19 because it prevents you from getting the disease altogether in most cases. For those who still contract the disease, most will have only a mild infection and not die.

Many people question this safe and effective treatment based on the false and exaggerated claims by anti-vaccination activists and some politicians. It is hardly surprising and entirely understandable that our neighbours would seek to take their safety and lives into their own hands if they felt it was the best option.

I am here to recommend that we all take a step back and reflect on how the pandemic has changed us. Reflect on the fear, vulnerability and frustration we have been cycling through these past 18 months. Today, please give health-care providers a chance and trust us. Wear your mask, get vaccinated if you have not already. Give us, your neighbours, the benefit of the doubt. We want to help you. Would you please help us?"


also:

US horse owners face ivermectin shortage as humans chase unproven Covid ‘cure’

...as happened for patients with a legitimate need for hydrochloriquine
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 04:14:31 PM by SimonNZ »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5265 on: September 20, 2021, 04:46:58 PM »
Maybe not researched, but after following the Ivermectin debate for a few weeks some knowledge has accumulated.

Something which I doubt Greg has an answer for: and what reputable medical source is advising Ivermectin as treatment for or preventative of COVID-19?

So, yeah, I'm laughing my arse off at MAGA-zoids who are taking it because "they heard somewhere."
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Online Holden

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5266 on: September 20, 2021, 10:11:59 PM »

The benefit of the doubt
COVID-19 is terrifying and has left many feeling powerless over a deadly infection. Vaccination is the best treatment for COVID-19 because it prevents you from getting the disease altogether in most cases. For those who still contract the disease, most will have only a mild infection and not die.

Many people question this safe and effective treatment based on the false and exaggerated claims by anti-vaccination activists and some politicians. It is hardly surprising and entirely understandable that our neighbours would seek to take their safety and lives into their own hands if they felt it was the best option.

I am here to recommend that we all take a step back and reflect on how the pandemic has changed us. Reflect on the fear, vulnerability and frustration we have been cycling through these past 18 months. Today, please give health-care providers a chance and trust us. Wear your mask, get vaccinated if you have not already. Give us, your neighbours, the benefit of the doubt. We want to help you. Would you please help us?"

Salient and sage advice. It's not rocket science and the proof that the vaccines do protect us is abundant.
Cheers

Holden

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5267 on: September 21, 2021, 02:15:55 AM »
Something which I doubt Greg has an answer for: and what reputable medical source is advising Ivermectin as treatment for or preventative of COVID-19?

So, yeah, I'm laughing my arse off at MAGA-zoids who are taking it because "they heard somewhere."

Yeah, it is interesting to believe 99 % of doctors in the World are part of a global conspiracy to magnetize/microship people with vaccines, but Ivermectin is great, because Joe Rogan and Alex Jones said so! ???

At the moment I am pretty neutral about Ivermectin (human doses of it). It may not harm much to take, but it probably doesn't help much either. It would be bad for Big Pharma, if it turned out Ivermectin worked well against Covid-19, because it is a cheap generic drug. Big Pharma needs "Pzifermectin" that sells $400 per dose to cash in. Ivermectin is a problem because some people take horse doses and/or think Ivermectin can keep them safe without getting vaccinated. Joe Rogan got better fast, but he "threw the kitchen sink at it." He had a cocktail of drugs! A cocktail not available for normal people. Many people say it was mostly the monoclonal antibodies that cured him.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 02:20:08 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5268 on: September 21, 2021, 02:33:40 AM »
also:

US horse owners face ivermectin shortage as humans chase unproven Covid ‘cure’

...as happened for patients with a legitimate need for hydrochloriquine

Why don't they give the vaccines refused by Covidiots to the horses?  ;D If dewormers work against Covid, maybe Covid vaccines can be used to deworm horses?  ;D That's sound MAGA logic, isn't it? The only downsize would be magnetized horses. ;D
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Offline MusicTurner

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5269 on: September 21, 2021, 03:10:06 AM »
Still a good development here in DK, with a positive percentage below 1% in tests, typically 250 - 500 cases per day, and a fall in the number of hospitalizations, from about 140 to now 96, within a few weeks, and in spite of the general opening up. Today's calculated R number is again 0.7

Experts find it puzzling, and are ascribing it to the vaccination rate, but they still warn for a later 4th and 5th wave.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 03:18:21 AM by MusicTurner »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5270 on: September 21, 2021, 05:00:59 AM »
Still a good development here in DK, with a positive percentage below 1% in tests, typically 250 - 500 cases per day, and a fall in the number of hospitalizations, from about 140 to now 96, within a few weeks, and in spite of the general opening up. Today's calculated R number is again 0.7

Experts find it puzzling, and are ascribing it to the vaccination rate, but they still warn for a later 4th and 5th wave.

Good news.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Spotted Horses

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5271 on: September 21, 2021, 05:21:27 AM »
The can of dewormers

I was one who a while ago laughed at people taking "horse dewormers", but now my attitude has changed after hearing more information and having a more nyanced picture. I am surprised how badly Ivermectin has been dealt with in the media. I haven't seen anyone give the "whole picture" of it. It is like getting one piece of a puzzle somewhere and then you have to solve that puzzle yourself.

(1) Some people seem to use Ivermectin as a political tool to point out that anti-vaxxers are taking "horse paste."

Some of them are.

(2) Ivermectin has different doses for humans and horses. Human dose is safe for humans. Horse dose is NOT.

Ivermectin carries risk even when used according to prescription guidelines. That is why it is not available over the counter.

(3) Ivermectin is a generic drug meaning Big Pharma can't do price gouging with it.

It is possible to manipulate the price of off-patent medication. That was the basis of "Pharma-bro" scheme. Ivermectin is likely to get very expensive because there is limit supply and a sudden increase in demand. People who actually need it won't be able to get it.

(4) Pharmacies have been told not to sell Ivermectin (that's why some people get horse version instead!)

Invermectin is a prescription drug, meaning you can't get it without a doctor's order. Pharmacies will sell or not sell ivermectin depending on whether a valid prescription is presented.

(5) Almost half of FDA's funding comes from the companies it regulates (insane!).

The funding you refer to consists of user fees. If you request a driver's license you pay a fee, if you request a passport you pay a processing fee, if you apply for a VISA you pay a fee, if you file a patent application you pay a fee. Fees are ubiquitous when government services are involved. The FDA fees are meant to defray the significant costs the FDA incurs to evaluate a drug, and I assume a side effect of this is to discourage frivolous applications.

(6) The effectiveness of Ivermectin (for humans) to battle Covid-19 is not clear.

Not clear meaning there is no significant evidence? What is clear is that in some cell cultures Invermectin inhibits viral replication (at concentration corresponding to 100 times a fatal dose). There are a few clinical studies which seem to show a benefit, but the studies are small and the results not statistically significant. There is a hint that Invermectin may someday be the basis of an anti-viral therapy.

(7) Monoclonal antibodies seems to be the best* Covid-19 treatment (but only rich people have access to it).

Monoclonal antibody infusions were purchased by the federal government and are offered free of cost, although there may be a fee to administer the treatment, which may be covered by health insurance. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/monoclonal-antibody-treatment-for-covid-19-effectiveness-cost-and-more

(9) Some people use Ivermectin as a scam to cash in (consultation fee).

Quote
It has taken so long to get a better picture of the dewormer issue! It is dangerous to jump to conclusions too early, because you never know what kind of agenda people have. It is as if everyone is after money these days and nobody is interested about the truth. Ivermectin seems to be an issue so versatile, that any group of people can look at it from a particular angle and use it cynically to advance their agenda  :-X If I am wrong with any of the points listed above please educate me.

If you want to do "research" you should simply read the FDA guidance on Ivermectin.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 05:34:43 AM by Spotted Horses »

Offline greg

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5272 on: September 21, 2021, 06:29:07 AM »
Something which I doubt Greg has an answer for: and what reputable medical source is advising Ivermectin as treatment for or preventative of COVID-19?

So, yeah, I'm laughing my arse off at MAGA-zoids who are taking it because "they heard somewhere."
I don't get the point of the question. I don't know anything about that medicine nor do I care to research it, also I don't have an opinion on whether to support it or not. Just wanted to say that it's good he went out of his way to learn about something rather than just accept what is being blasted at the general public. After all, if none of us did our own investigations, we'd only be listening to pop/country/rap, never to classical music.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5273 on: September 21, 2021, 07:24:40 AM »
(1) Some people seem to use Ivermectin as a political tool to point out that anti-vaxxers are taking "horse paste."

Some of them are.

(2) Ivermectin has different doses for humans and horses. Human dose is safe for humans. Horse dose is NOT.

Ivermectin carries risk even when used according to prescription guidelines. That is why it is not available over the counter.

(3) Ivermectin is a generic drug meaning Big Pharma can't do price gouging with it.

It is possible to manipulate the price of off-patent medication. That was the basis of "Pharma-bro" scheme. Ivermectin is likely to get very expensive because there is limit supply and a sudden increase in demand. People who actually need it won't be able to get it.

(4) Pharmacies have been told not to sell Ivermectin (that's why some people get horse version instead!)

Invermectin is a prescription drug, meaning you can't get it without a doctor's order. Pharmacies will sell or not sell ivermectin depending on whether a valid prescription is presented.

(5) Almost half of FDA's funding comes from the companies it regulates (insane!).

The funding you refer to consists of user fees. If you request a driver's license you pay a fee, if you request a passport you pay a processing fee, if you apply for a VISA you pay a fee, if you file a patent application you pay a fee. Fees are ubiquitous when government services are involved. The FDA fees are meant to defray the significant costs the FDA incurs to evaluate a drug, and I assume a side effect of this is to discourage frivolous applications.

(6) The effectiveness of Ivermectin (for humans) to battle Covid-19 is not clear.

Not clear meaning there is no significant evidence? What is clear is that in some cell cultures Invermectin inhibits viral replication (at concentration corresponding to 100 times a fatal dose). There are a few clinical studies which seem to show a benefit, but the studies are small and the results not statistically significant. There is a hint that Invermectin may someday be the basis of an anti-viral therapy.

(7) Monoclonal antibodies seems to be the best* Covid-19 treatment (but only rich people have access to it).

Monoclonal antibody infusions were purchased by the federal government and are offered free of cost, although there may be a fee to administer the treatment, which may be covered by health insurance. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/monoclonal-antibody-treatment-for-covid-19-effectiveness-cost-and-more

(9) Some people use Ivermectin as a scam to cash in (consultation fee).

If you want to do "research" you should simply read the FDA guidance on Ivermectin.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

Thanks for these points! FDA guidance is of course good, but reading it does not explain why Alex Jones pushes dewormers like there was no tomorrow. I'm not only interested of Ivermectin as a drug. I am interested as to why people have so different views of these things. Are we soon at a point where people debate about whether the sky is blue? Will the society come to a total halt at that point? Does the humanity have any future? Will the climate change kill us off this planet within the next 100 years and that's it? Was Covid-19 pandemic a taste of the apocalyptic times ahead of us?
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Offline Spotted Horses

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5274 on: September 21, 2021, 07:34:58 AM »
Thanks for these points! FDA guidance is of course good, but reading it does not explain why Alex Jones pushes dewormers like there was no tomorrow. I'm not only interested of Ivermectin as a drug. I am interested as to why people have so different views of these things. Are we soon at a point where people debate about whether the sky is blue? Will the society come to a total halt at that point? Does the humanity have any future? Will the climate change kill us off this planet within the next 100 years and that's it? Was Covid-19 pandemic a taste of the apocalyptic times ahead of us?

Alex Jones is mentally ill and one of the more despicable human beings you will ever encounter. He also pushed the theory that the Sandy Hook shooting was a 'false flag' attack and staged by 'crisis actors.' His followers cruelly harassed parents who lost children in the attack. Whether he believes the idiotic conspiracy theories he pushes is questionable, that he profits from them is not. (BTW, I have family members that live in Sandy Hook and Newtown, who knew one of the first-graders that was murdered at Sandy Hook elementary school).

The defining characteristic of the modern conspiracy theorist is that the most insignificant inconsistency in the official story is taken as absolute proof that the official story is false (and often the inconsistency arrises from the conspiracy theorist's inability to understand the official story) while glaring inconsistencies in the conspiracy are ignored.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 07:37:54 AM by Spotted Horses »

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5275 on: September 21, 2021, 08:13:12 AM »
"Texas couple asked to leave restaurant for wearing face masks to protect their immunocompromised infant"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/no-mask-policy-restaurant-couple-texas-trnd/index.html

God help us!

PD

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5276 on: September 21, 2021, 09:26:52 AM »
"Texas couple asked to leave restaurant for wearing face masks to protect their immunocompromised infant"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/no-mask-policy-restaurant-couple-texas-trnd/index.html

God help us!

PD

Texas is deep in the Death Cult Belt.
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Offline greg

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5277 on: September 21, 2021, 10:28:43 AM »
Alex Jones is mentally ill and one of the more despicable human beings you will ever encounter. He also pushed the theory that the Sandy Hook shooting was a 'false flag' attack and staged by 'crisis actors.' His followers cruelly harassed parents who lost children in the attack. Whether he believes the idiotic conspiracy theories he pushes is questionable, that he profits from them is not. (BTW, I have family members that live in Sandy Hook and Newtown, who knew one of the first-graders that was murdered at Sandy Hook elementary school).

The defining characteristic of the modern conspiracy theorist is that the most insignificant inconsistency in the official story is taken as absolute proof that the official story is false (and often the inconsistency arrises from the conspiracy theorist's inability to understand the official story) while glaring inconsistencies in the conspiracy are ignored.
Maybe you didn't see him on Joe Rogan. He went on and on about how he was wrong and changed his mind on that.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5278 on: September 21, 2021, 10:42:28 AM »
Alex Jones is mentally ill and one of the more despicable human beings you will ever encounter. He also pushed the theory that the Sandy Hook shooting was a 'false flag' attack and staged by 'crisis actors.' His followers cruelly harassed parents who lost children in the attack. Whether he believes the idiotic conspiracy theories he pushes is questionable, that he profits from them is not. (BTW, I have family members that live in Sandy Hook and Newtown, who knew one of the first-graders that was murdered at Sandy Hook elementary school).

The defining characteristic of the modern conspiracy theorist is that the most insignificant inconsistency in the official story is taken as absolute proof that the official story is false (and often the inconsistency arises from the conspiracy theorist's inability to understand the official story) while glaring inconsistencies in the conspiracy are ignored.

Thank you.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Online Holden

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Re: Coronavirus thread
« Reply #5279 on: September 21, 2021, 11:06:25 AM »
"Texas couple asked to leave restaurant for wearing face masks to protect their immunocompromised infant"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/no-mask-policy-restaurant-couple-texas-trnd/index.html

God help us!

PD

Yes, God help us understand why just a single incident like this becomes news. It's simply a single incident and not necessarily indicative of any proveable trend but would the media have us think otherwise?
Cheers

Holden