Coronavirus thread

[Karl Henning]

     One reason to be skeptical of the lab release narrative is that they may have never possessed the virus in the first place.

The Wuhan team leader, renowned virologist Shi Zhengli, contends that the institute never possessed the SARS-cov-2 virus that triggered the outbreak that has infected more than 3 million people worldwide. In a social media posting, Shi said she would "bet my life" that the outbreak had "nothing to do with the lab."

     If we can't even refute the claim that the lab never had the virus, how can we believe the claim that they mishandled it?

     

     

Oh, conspiracy theorists can believe whatever they please....

[greg]

     One reason to be skeptical of the lab release narrative is that they may have never possessed the virus in the first place.

The Wuhan team leader, renowned virologist Shi Zhengli, contends that the institute never possessed the SARS-cov-2 virus that triggered the outbreak that has infected more than 3 million people worldwide. In a social media posting, Shi said she would "bet my life" that the outbreak had "nothing to do with the lab."

     If we can't even refute the claim that the lab never had the virus, how can we believe the claim that they mishandled it?   

Seriously? That's like being a police officer and getting to a crime scene and seeing a guy run outside with a gun and bloody gloves and asking him if he did it, then walking away when he says he didn't.

They were studying coronaviruses in bats at the time, they even left job postings on their website about that.

Apparently this sort of thing has happened before, so I don't see why it's so difficult to believe.

[drogulus]

Seriously? That's like being a police officer and getting to a crime scene and seeing a guy run outside with a gun and bloody gloves and asking him if he did it, then walking away when he says he didn't.

They were studying coronaviruses in bats at the time, they even left job postings on their website about that.

Apparently this sort of thing has happened before, so I don't see why it's so difficult to believe.

     It's easy to believe. I'm not interested in the easy part. The lab director says they didn't have this virus. It doesn't matter what happened with other viruses they did have in the lab.

     If the intelligence agencies or virologists say different, the game changes. No one says different. As far as the world knows (not believes, knows), there is no evidence the lab had the virus they might have mishandled if they did have it, if "this sort of thing" occurred this sort of time.

      Chinese lab conducted extensive research on deadly bat viruses, but there is no evidence of accidental release

But while an accidental release may have been possible, no proof of such of an event has emerged. The closest relative to the coronavirus that causes covid-19 known to have existed at Wuhan was still a distant relative, scientists say. In March, a landmark study of the virus's origins in the journal Nature Medicine played down the possibility of an accident, saying "we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible."

     Maybe we can scare up a closest relative sort of theory that implicates the lab. It only has to be good enough for belief, yes? It's not like it has to be true or anything.

[Ratliff]

Seriously? That's like being a police officer and getting to a crime scene and seeing a guy run outside with a gun and bloody gloves and asking him if he did it, then walking away when he says he didn't.

They were studying coronaviruses in bats at the time, they even left job postings on their website about that.

Apparently this sort of thing has happened before, so I don't see why it's so difficult to believe.

I don't believe that everything which is possible is true. It is possible but there is no particular evidence for it.

[greg]

I don't believe that everything which is possible is true. It is possible but there is no particular evidence for it.

If you want evidence then don't believe anything- that's perfectly fine. But we are only allowed to play the guessing game here- and it's fine for people to sit out as long they don't heckle the players from the sidelines.
(Though personally I don't get why people are so scared of making guesses when there is a lack of information, since that's literally all you can do why not do it anyways).

There's more signs pointing to the lab than the wet market, and those are the only two guesses available to us. Previously I was accepting the wet market theory but the lab theory just has too many red flags. So guess I'm switching teams. But if it were proven to be the wet market without a doubt, it doesn't really matter much either way.

     It's easy to believe. I'm not interested in the easy part. The lab director says they didn't have this virus. It doesn't matter what happened with other viruses they did have in the lab.

     If the intelligence agencies or virologists say different, the game changes. No one says different. As far as the world knows (not believes, knows), there is no evidence the lab had the virus they might have mishandled if they did have it, if "this sort of thing" occurred this sort of time.

      Chinese lab conducted extensive research on deadly bat viruses, but there is no evidence of accidental release

But while an accidental release may have been possible, no proof of such of an event has emerged. The closest relative to the coronavirus that causes covid-19 known to have existed at Wuhan was still a distant relative, scientists say. In March, a landmark study of the virus's origins in the journal Nature Medicine played down the possibility of an accident, saying "we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible."

     Maybe we can scare up a closest relative sort of theory that implicates the lab. It only has to be good enough for belief, yes? It's not like it has to be true or anything.

ahem... did you not get the memo that you absolutely cannot trust what the people at the lab say? If it turns out that the CCP doesn't know of the origins, telling the truth would get them killed, and probably their families, too.
I didn't bother to even read the article, because of the headline. Why would there be evidence? Why would they leave it?

[SimonNZ]

evidence

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9.pdf

[Florestan]

The lab director says they didn't have this virus.

If she says that then it must certainly be true. After all, people in charge of sensitive entities operating under extreme ideological pressure from their governments are universally reputed to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

If we can't even refute the claim that the lab never had the virus, how can we believe the claim that they mishandled it?

Of course. We can't refute Marquis de Carabas's claim that Puss-in-Boots is his footman, so how can we believe the claim that Puss-in-Boots does not exist?

[Herman]

The "Chinese Lab" theory is completely bogus, there is not a shred of evidence for it.

It's Trump's desperate attempt to pivot the attention away from his abysmal performance this year by pointing to an external enemy, and by even discussing this crazy theory you're basically doing Trump's work.

People are talking about "punishing" China. Seriously? China owns half of the USA. The only one capable of punishing anybody is China, by pulling the rug out under America's financial system. They're not going to do that, since it would hurt China, too, but just try to figure this as a reality check.

[SimonNZ]

There's also been no anonymous whistleblowing from anyone connected to the lab to support that spin.

[Herman]

On the other music group, which got so right wing many of today's members fled to GMG fifteen years ago, one of the nuttiest posters who is parroting the GOPs talking points to a T is now calling for a "Total War against China".

If called on it (but who would do that there) I'm sure he'll say he was just being "sarcastic".

[drogulus]

If she says that then it must certainly be true. After all, people in charge of sensitive entities operating under extreme ideological pressure from their governments are universally reputed to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Of course. We can't refute Marquis de Carabas's claim that Puss-in-Boots is his footman, so how can we believe the claim that Puss-in-Boots does not exist?

     The Wuhan lab has so many connections with virologists in around the world that it would be hard to keep a secret against the wishes of so many people highly motivated to get the truth out. So, where is the back channel leak we would need? If the spooks haven't got it, and virologists aren't doing their duty to humanity by exposing this terrible accident, what's the claim based on?

     Believers do the easy part, believe what they want. People with standards mop up after.

     

[Karl Henning]

"A "calamitous event" like the pandemic creates a "very fertile breeding ground for conspiracy theories," said John Cook, an expert on misinformation with George Mason University's Center for Climate Change Communication.

The onslaught of information and misinformation on social media, on cable news and in general conversation may create confusion, but it's made even worse by human discomfort with ambiguity, especially when our lives are at stake.

Kate Pine, an assistant professor in the College of Health Solutions at Arizona State University, is currently interviewing people around the United States on how they're navigating covid-19. She said people "feel like they're inundated with information, but they don't have the information they want," and as a result, they might be more willing to believe outlandish claims." [...]

[BasilValentine]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9.pdf

My number one takeaway from this article: They eat pangolins? Seriously?

My summary of the findings as I (mis?)understand(?) them: Two features of the novel coronavirus's genome that distinguish it from other SARS coronaviruses and which are key to its ability to infect humans have been found in bats and pangolins respectively. They don't occur in any of the coronaviruses that were being manipulated in the Wuhan lab. Therefore, transfer from animals is the likely scenario, although it is possible that mutations in a similar virus occurred during human to human transmission as well.

[SimonNZ]

Yeah. Poor little pangolins. I think their scales get ground up into some kind of magic healing powder.

If they're considered toxic and left alone after this it may be one good thing to come of it.

[Todd]

China has turned to bullying to avoid accountability. It may be working on Europe.

[Karl Henning]

Nearly seven weeks into the shutdown, here's why so many are still getting sick

By
Kyle Swenson and
Jenna Portnoy
April 30, 2020 at 6:05 p.m. EDT
The District, Maryland and Virginia have been shut down for weeks, their economies in tatters. Large swaths of the population venture out only rarely, wrapped in masks and gloves.

But hundreds of new coronavirus cases are still reported each day as the virus continues its devastating march through nursing homes, jails and other institutional settings. Doctors and public health officials said it increasingly is infecting people who cannot afford to miss work or telecommute — grocery store employees, delivery drivers and construction workers. Sometimes they, in turn, infect their families.

On Thursday alone, there were nearly 2,000 new cases, and 111 deaths.

"It is community spread, then taking it home," said Sonja Bachus, chief executive of Greater Baden Medical Services, which has locations in Charles and Prince George's counties in Maryland. "It is disheartening."

The decisions to close schools and ban large gatherings in mid-March, and issue stay-at-home orders in the District, Maryland and Virginia two weeks later, have helped slow the spread of the novel coronavirus, experts say. But that doesn't mean no one is getting sick.

While some of the first known victims in the greater Washington area had traveled on international cruises and to professional conferences, it is now more common to hear about police officers, firefighters and health-care workers contracting the virus.

Medical technician Tiffany Smith had been running a fever for four days when she showed up for a free coronavirus test this week outside a dilapidated shopping center in Richmond. One of her co-workers at an assisted-living facility in Chesterfield County has the virus.

Smith's five children, ages 14 to 28, have mostly felt fine, she said, and are "walking around like nothing's wrong."

Jeffrey Martin, a professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of California at San Francisco's School of Medicine, said some continued spread is inevitable, even with the broad shutdown. On the West Coast, which began social distancing before the greater Washington region, new cases only recently started to slow.

"I don't know if there was ever the reasonable expectation that we would entirely bring down transmission to zero in a country this dynamic," Martin said.

Government leaders in Maryland, Virginia and the District say they won't ease shutdown restrictions until the number of new hospitalizations starts to fall. And they warn that the continued spread of the disease illustrates that when businesses, schools and retail establishments are allowed to reopen, people may need to wear masks and avoid crowds for many months to come.

State and local health departments do not publish the occupations and living conditions of everyone who tests positive, so there is no comprehensive analysis of who is getting sick. But interviews with doctors and public health officials, and data that has been made public, paint a portrait of a pandemic that increasingly is infecting those who have limited ability to socially distance.

"I had two people that work in a grocery store, one person that works in a day care and another person that works in housekeeping," said J. Luis Nunez Gallegos, assistant medical director at Unity Health Care Upper Cardozo Health Center in the District's Columbia Heights neighborhood. "They all had contact with a covid-19-positive person at work."

When he told patients to quarantine, many replied that it wasn't that simple.

"They are afraid of losing their jobs," Nunez said. "They are anxious their employers won't respect the quarantine, or that two weeks seems too long, and they don't always have the savings to get by."

Sherrell Thompson, a community health worker in a Richmond public housing community, said residents working at fast-food chains and in grocery stores don't have easy access to as many masks as they'd like for themselves and their families.

"But what can you do?" Thompson said. "You have to go to work and support your family. It's your only means of income."

The District updates the number of infected police officers and fire and EMS responders every day, and the number of infections keeps growing, albeit more slowly lately.

As of Tuesday, 88 members of the fire department had tested positive, up from 77 a week earlier, 67 on April 14 and 40 on April 7. The number of D.C. police officers with confirmed infections grew during the same period, from 31 to 59 to 86 to 92.

Members of the police and fire departments wear protective gear and have made other efforts to avoid getting infected. But they still at times come in close contact with one another and members of the public.

A Virginia man who works in public health in the region tested positive last week after spending days fitting N95 masks on health-care providers. He spoke on the condition of anonymity because his employer had not authorized him to be interviewed.

Although he washed his hands constantly, wore protective gear and kept a bottle of hand sanitizer on his desk, the man, who is now quarantined at home, said he knew he was at risk of contracting the coronavirus.

"It was a job I had to do," he said. "I'm a senior team lead in my organization, and it kind of fell upon me to be the one to go out and do it."

Andrew D. Washington, executive director of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees District Council 20, has heard about infections among D.C. sanitation workers, paramedics who work on private contracts, and city government employees who work with the poor and disabled.

"They all are considered first responders as well and should be getting the same kudos," he said.

LaQuandra Nesbitt, the director of D.C.'s health department, said last week that about 2 percent of the city's confirmed cases involved travel, and about 5 percent involved health-care workers. Poorer neighborhoods account for an increasing share.

On March 31, wealthy Ward 3 had 70 cases, while Ward 8 — the city's poorest — had 44. As of Tuesday, Ward 3 had 270 total cases, with 55 new patients over the previous week. Ward 8's case­load had spiked nearly 14-fold to 597, with 139 added over the previous week.

Some of that shift might reflect the fact that wealthier people with better access to information and health care were quicker to get tested. But it also illustrates that those who can stay at home are now largely protected.

Increased testing also explains, to some extent, why the number of new daily cases continues to rise. "That is expected," said Laurie Forlano, Virginia's deputy commissioner of health. "Obviously we'll detect more cases, and those cases will be counted."

But health experts say the region is far from testing enough of the population to get a clear picture of who has the virus. And neither the District nor Maryland nor Virginia has enough contact-tracers in place to sketch a picture of how the coronavirus is passing through.

Each new positive patient represents a tangle of possible exposures — co-workers, family and random encounters. Tracking down those connections is the only way to isolate the spread and stop the danger, experts say.

It would help solve mysteries like that of Sharrarne Morton, a Prince George's resident who says she stayed at home and took precautions but still contracted the virus.

"The few times I did go out, I had a mask and gloves," she said. "My daughters even bought me a hand sanitizer that you put on the key ring."

Stella Jefferies, a nurse practitioner who runs a clinic in Silver Spring, said she has tested a number of patients since March 23 who cannot account for their exposure. The infections seem to stem from the community, not through travel, she said, and the cases have steadily ticked upward.

"If I have the virus, but the department of health can't contact-trace all the people who I have been in contact with and get them out of circulation, we will continue to have it in the community," said Lynn Goldman, dean of George Washington University's Milken Institute School of Public Health.

"We haven't had the resources to do that yet."

Rachel Chason, Peter Hermann, Fenit Nirappil, Laura Vozzella and Ovetta Wiggins contributed to this report.

[Todd]

Rich in U.S. Grab Historic Chance to Pass On Wealth Tax-Free

Rich Americans are taking advantage of an unprecedented opportunity, made possible by the coronavirus pandemic, to transfer money to their children and grandchildren tax-free.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Just read this about problems in England in terms of people being able to get rid of their trash.  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52490195

What is it like in your area?  In my town, they cut out one day in terms of being able to haul your own trash to the dump.  They also have restricted the number of cars able to go in at one time to I think five and have a police officer there too to direct traffic.  And, of course, there's the required social distancing.  You can bring in your recyclables too; stores, however, are not currently taking in returnable recyclables (you're charged 5 cents per bottle for these), so those are piling up in people's basements/homes for the time being.  Note:  in my town, you can pay a company to pick up your trash, but I prefer to purchase a dump sticker and take it myself (you also need to purchase special bags to put household trash into too).  No extra charge for recycling.

Here's the article:  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52490195

Sad to hear that it's lead to an increase in 'fly-tipping'.

PD

[Florestan]

China has turned to bullying to avoid accountability. It may be working on Europe.

I am not surprised in the least.

[Todd]

FEMA added individual assistance for crisis counseling to prior emergency declarations for 30 states today.