Coronavirus thread

[71 dB]

Probably about a third of my childhood friends were black, the environment I grew up in wasn't exactly the ghetto, but it was much closer to what we're talking about then people from places like New Zealand or Finland.

We have black people here in Finland. I'm sure there are black people in New Zealand. We have racism in Finland. I'm sure there's racism in  New Zealand as well. Simon and I living far away from the US in much more white countries doesn't mean we can't understand racism and how racism manifests itself in the US police/politics/society. All it really takes is to go beyond white priviledge upholding mainstream media. 

[Que]

These numbers are for adults, right? With delta-variant that is deceiving, because also children are affected easily. I believe the Netherlands is around 71 % ref whole population for at least one shot.

Correct - from 18 years. Though 12-18 years old are now being vaccinated as well.

Edit: the percentage of full vaccination of anyone over 12 years old is 79%.
https://www.rivm.nl/en/news/people-who-had-one-jab-after-having-covid-19-now-included-in-vaccination-coverage-figures

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the minority is getting more vocal?

You could say it like that, "hysterical" paints a more accurate picture. Like Americans the Dutch don't like others to tell them what to do, but the difference is the trust in authorities - which is high with the Dutch and rather low in the US.

[Que]

"People who had one jab after having COVID-19 now included in vaccination coverage figures for full vaccination."

Finland has used vaccination numbers ref whole population and full vaccination means full vaccination: 73.5 % for at least one jab and 60.0 % for fully vaccinated. Making the numbers look good with math tricks doesn't help with the pandemic.

People who experienced a Covid infection before vaccination, are only vaccinated once instead of two times.
It's not a math trick, they are fully vaccinated.

[Holden]

Now 60 % of Finns are fully vaccinated. They say in the end of October enough people will be vaccinated to "open" the society, but we'll see. All we need is a new variant and we are back in square one. 

Really? Why would that be so?

The article below suggests otherwise

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/300415920/when-does-covid-become-a-cold-the-imperfect-science-of-ending-the-pandemic

[Karl Henning]

Really? Why would that be so?

The article below suggests otherwise

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/300415920/when-does-covid-become-a-cold-the-imperfect-science-of-ending-the-pandemic

Interesting, thanks.

[Mandryka]

I don't think it is in creasing. Full vaccination is now over 82% and expected to go up to around 90% in the weeks to come.

The issue is that now almost everybody around them is vaccinated and social pressure is rising, the stance of antivaxers and the social debate are hardening.

Why have you introduced vaccine passports in Holland?

[Que]

Why have you introduced vaccine passports in Holland?

A controversial decision, which is aimed at allowing clubs, etc. to reopen and mass events like concerts and festivals to take place again. Of course, the consequence is that no vaccination = no admittance.

BTW During my holiday in France I haven't been allowed into any bar, restaurant or museum without my EU vaccination passport!

[Karl Henning]

A controversial decision, which is aimed at allowing clubs, etc. to reopen and mass events like concerts and festivals to take place again. Of course, the consequence is that no vaccination = no admittance.

Well, "if you want to socialize, get the vaccine" is a perfectly reasonable approach.

[Que]

Well, "if you want to socialize, get the vaccine" is a perfectly reasonable approach.

Absolutely!

[Mandryka]

A controversial decision, which is aimed at allowing clubs, etc. to reopen and mass events like concerts and festivals to take place again. Of course, the consequence is that no vaccination = no admittance.

BTW During my holiday in France I haven't been allowed into any bar, restaurant or museum without my EU vaccination passport!

Yes well France did it to get the vaccine rate up, Holland doesn't have that problem.

I think that we are starting to see political consequences of the pandemic. Politicians have learned that people in Europe are open to being divided, controlled and surveilled, which is nice if you see your role as one of governing, managing, the people.

I have a test which I apply in these sort of situations: I ask myself what Reinhard Heydrich would have done with the information and control infrastructure being put into place. There will be other Heydrichs. Covid has made us so sacred, and we have been made so scared of COVID,  that, IMO, there is a high degree of complacency and wilful blindness.

The government here has been prevented from taking the step of implementing passports by their right wing, but you can sense that there is a strong desire to seize the moment and put these measures in place, IMO for obvious reasons, not necessarily health reasons.

[Mandryka]

Absolutely!

Did your government share its models showing the predicted effect of the passports on the evolution of the pandemic? Or was it all just hand waving?  If they did share the models, could I see a link?

[71 dB]

Why have you introduced vaccine passports in Holland?

They are planning vaccine passports in Finland too. Of course our own "MAGA" party for racists and other low information voters, the True Finns, is against it, but all other parties are for it to my knowledge. Instead of keeping some things closed for everybody, vaccine passports allow opening those things for vaccinated people. The bonus is it motivates unvaccinated people to get vaccinated.

[Mandryka]

They are planning vaccine passports in Finland too. . . .  all other parties are for it to my knowledge.

I'm sure they are, it's a politician's dream.

Let me ask you the same question as I asked que -- Did your government share its models showing the predicted effect of the passports on the evolution of the pandemic? Or was it all just hand waving?  If they did share the models, could I see a link?


Generally it's quite difficult to assess the impact of a non pharmaceutical intervention on the evolution of the pandemic in a country. I hope very much that soon there will be a rational discussion of what was effective, and what was hard to justify in terms of benefits and costs. Closing primary schools, closing frontiers, vaccine passports, closing retail outlets, stopping friends meeting in small groups, making face coverings a requirement, keeping 2m apart  . . . work from home . . . were these really justifiable? It will be interesting to see what the most considered opinions are.

[71 dB]

People who experienced a Covid infection before vaccination, are only vaccinated once instead of two times.
It's not a math trick, they are fully vaccinated.

I see your point. The amount of "fully vaccinated" is larger than the amount of people with two jabs.

One jab > fully vaccinated > two jabs.

[71 dB]

I'm sure they are, it's a politician's dream.

Let me ask you the same question as I asked que -- Did your government share its models showing the predicted effect of the passports on the evolution of the pandemic? Or was it all just hand waving?  If they did share the models, could I see a link?


Generally it's quite difficult to assess the impact of a non pharmaceutical intervention on the evolution of the pandemic in a country. I hope very much that soon there will be a rational discussion of what was effective, and what was hard to justify in terms of benefits and costs. Closing primary schools, closing frontiers, vaccine passports, closing retail outlets, stopping friends meeting in small groups, making face coverings a requirement, keeping 2m apart  . . . work from home . . . were these really justifiable? It will be interesting to see what the most considered opinions are.

I have not seen any models. The logic as far as I have understood is the vaccines protect well against hospitalization. So, even if covid spreads among vaccinated people (in places where they can go with corona passports) the burden to the healthcare system stays low.

[Mandryka]

I have not seen any models. The logic as far as I have understood is the vaccines protect well against hospitalization. So, even if covid spreads among vaccinated people (in places where they can go with corona passports) the burden to the healthcare system stays low.

Yes, it's interesting that a measure like passports for admission to a bar or club can be just waved through with that sort of "gestural" argument. Has there been any mention of the conditions which would trigger removing passports, or are they now seen as a permanent feature?

[Karl Henning]

I don't see anyone "scared of COVID" and I wonder why you're pushing this.  I see people taking a public health threat seriously, and taking reasonable precautions. Of course, here in the US, down in the Death Cult Belt, we also see people recklessly disregarding considerations of the public weal.
My organist, who is also a nurse and a Lutheran pastor, was hospitalized for COVID, she still needs oxygen at night. She (for instance) is not "scared of COVID," she is adopting sensible safety measures and continuing her work, including a ministry to the homeless in Salem.

So, if you see people "scared of COVID" show us a link, I for one am interested.

[Que]

Did your government share its models showing the predicted effect of the passports on the evolution of the pandemic? Or was it all just hand waving?  If they did share the models, could I see a link?

I think what comes into play here is the previous rash lifting of all restrictions in the Netherlands that went terribly wrong, with mass infections in a club and a pop music festival. The Dutch govt doesn't want to risk that kind of situation again.

[Mandryka]

I think what comes into play here is the previous rash lifting of all restrictions in the Netherlands tHt sent terribly

Yes. So now they have a sort of carte blanche. Maybe you trust these people who govern your country, maybe they are working for the best for the people. In the UK they were all put there by big global capitalists, the press, the media. 

[Karl Henning]

Yes. So now they have a sort of carte blanche.

What a curious remark.