Coronavirus thread

Started by JBS, March 12, 2020, 07:03:50 PM

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Que

#5340
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Yes. So now they have a sort of carte blanche. Maybe you trust these people who govern your country, maybe they are working for the best for the people. In the UK they were all put there by big global capitalists, the press, the media.

Well, as a servant of the Crown, I'm probably biased. But the Netherlands has a long standing tradition of high trust in government, even before full-fleged democracy came about.

BTW From a capitalistic angle: the fewer restrictions, the better....

Mandryka

#5341
Quote from: Que on September 25, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Well, as a servant of the Crown, I'm probably biased. But the Netherlands has a long standing tradition of high trust in government, even before full-fleged democracy came about.

BTW From a capitalistic angle: the fewer restrictions, the better....  Doesn't quite add up, does it?  ::)

Yes and what has surprised me, though maybe I was naive about this, is how ready the left are to sacrifice freedoms.

I don't believe that from a capitalist angle, the fewer restrictions the better. Capitalist operations seek to control the people to make them work and spend in a way that makes the capitalist class a profit. The freedom in parliamentary capitalism is an illusion, theatre. Look at the way that capitalist governments have used social media data to manage the electoral process.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

71 dB

#5342
Quote from: Mandryka on September 25, 2021, 08:16:08 AM
Yes, it's interesting that a measure like passports for admission to a bar or club can be just waved through with that sort of "gestural" argument. Has there been any mention of the conditions which would trigger removing passports, or are they now seen as a permanent feature?

Well, in Finland it is not easy to "just wave through". There are tons of legal issues involved. We do not have passports yet. Maybe we won't have. It is just one tool to open society. We are in pandemic. Passports are one tool to manage somehow... ...of course it is no permanent. Soon we want to get to post pandemic world where this is not needed.
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Mandryka

#5343
It's hard for me to predict what will happen in the UK. We have avoided passports saying that it looks as though we don't need them because there are enough vaccinated people to ensure that hospitalisations stay at a manageable level, that it's better not to introduce such a strong social intervention if possible.

Vaccinations among vulnerable groups here is indeed high, with 90% of over 16s having started the vaccination process. But it's not at all clear whether that alone is enough to keep enough of a lid on things. Time will tell. And the leisure industry has been warned that passports may be introduced, they've been told to prepare themselves, that they may only get a week's notice  . . .

Clearly the seriousness of the 2021-22 flu epidemic is a big factor.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SimonNZ

It's worth remembering that proof of vaccinations has long existed in a variety of contexts including school and travel. Do you find those sensible or another example of government overreach and control?

Holden

#5345
Vaccine passports are pointless. Let's look at this from a simple standpoint. You are either vaccinated or you aren't. If you are vaccinated, then your chances of catching Covid are significantly reduced and if you do get it then the effects will be very mild. This is what the vaccine does. No worries for you.

If you are unvaccinated then the reverse is probably true, however, it was your decision not to be vaccinated so the consequences are fairly and squarely on your own head. In either case, a vaccine certificate will not make you any safer from those who are vaccinated and those who aren't. It's just a piece of paper saying that you've conformed to your governments wishes.

I have no issues with being in the same room as anyone who is unvaccinated because the jab has made me basically immune to any dire effects from Covid.

I can however, see a few reasons for a vaccination certificate and they are all situational and involve certain establishments. Yes, the unvaccinated should not be permitted to enter aged care facilities and certain medical establishments. The reason being is that there are people there who are at a higher risk of being severely impacted. For example, when I went to see my oncologist the other day there was a sign in the lift saying that masks were mandatory on a certain floor where chemotherapy treatment was being carried out. That, to me makes sense.

The awful thing is that the governments of many countries will refuse entry to the unvaccinated when it is not really necessary.

Finally, I have a document on my phone stating that I have been fully jabbed - will this suffice as a vaccine passport? Time will tell.
Cheers

Holden

SimonNZ

[I guess I'll ask you the same question:


It's worth remembering that proof of vaccinations has long existed in a variety of contexts including school and travel. Do you find those sensible or another example of government overreach and control?

SimonNZ

Quote from: SimonNZ on September 25, 2021, 01:33:31 PM
[I guess I'll ask you the same question I asked above:


It's worth remembering that proof of vaccinations has long existed in a variety of contexts including school and travel. Do you find those sensible or another example of government overreach and control?

Holden

Quote from: SimonNZ on September 25, 2021, 01:33:31 PM
[I guess I'll ask you the same question:


It's worth remembering that proof of vaccinations has long existed in a variety of contexts including school and travel. Do you find those sensible or another example of government overreach and control?

For schools possibly, though the list of diseases is very small and doesn't include the likes of influenza. For international travel I've never seen the point, especially considering that the main one cited, small pox, has been eradicated.
Cheers

Holden

Karl Henning

Quote from: Holden on September 25, 2021, 04:44:22 PM
For schools possibly, though the list of diseases is very small and doesn't include the likes of influenza. For international travel I've never seen the point, especially considering that the main one cited, small pox, has been eradicated.

Well, we thought measles was eradicated, until some anti-vaxxers on the West Coast gave it human petri dishes....
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Mandryka

#5350
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 25, 2021, 01:27:37 PM
It's worth remembering that proof of vaccinations has long existed in a variety of contexts including school and travel. Do you find those sensible or another example of government overreach and control?

Not in the Uk for school as far as I know, or for entry into the country. I don't know about other countries. I'm not sure what I think about it, though it does seem prima facie iffy to refuse a child an education because his parents decline, rightly or wrongly, to get him vaccinated.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#5351
For the discussion, let me remind people that my initial question to que was why Holland has introduced vaccine passports when it has a high rate of vaccination. I can see what France did it, as it had a very low rate of vaccination. Vaccine passports are clearly an effective nudge, and I can see that there's an argument for that in utilitarian terms. The same argument may apply in some US states.

What disturbs me is that lack of openness about the decision. It seems that in both Holland and Finland at least passports have been waved through without the facts of the matter being laid open to scrutiny by the people. Yes introducing vaccines may reduce transmission, but by how much? It's hardly an anodyne measure, its usefulness obviously depends on the extent of vaccination in place without it, and the reduction of transmission may not justify the reduction in liberty - who can say? Not me.

Don't forget that passports are a means of controlling and monitoring the population. There is associated big data, an unvaccinated underclass is created etc. It is hardly a no brainer!

I don't think it's a good idea to trust government in parliamentary capitalism because, in that system, the leaders do not have the best interests of the people as a priority.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SimonNZ

Singapore thought they were ready to open up with an 80 % vaccination but now have their largest infection rates in over a year.

Norway is right now going to complete freedom with 60-something %.

Mandryka

#5353
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 25, 2021, 09:08:12 PM
Singapore thought they were ready to open up with an 80 % vaccination but now have their largest infection rates in over a year.

Norway is right now going to complete freedom with 60-something %.

Of course if you remove non pharmaceutical interventions you will have a lot of people getting infected. Many will have very mild symptoms - the sniffles - or no symptoms at all. What matters more is how many people need hospital care. In terms of vaccination, what matters is that the vulnerable people are protected - i.e. the over 18s.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SimonNZ

Quote from: Mandryka on September 26, 2021, 12:09:43 AM
Of course if you remove non pharmaceutical interventions you will have a lot of people getting infected. Many will have very mild symptoms - the sniffles - or no symptoms at all. What matters more is how many people need hospital care. In terms of vaccination, what matters is that the vulnerable people are protected - i.e. the over 18s.

Singapore reports worst daily Covid case tally in more than a year

"[...]As of Tuesday, a total of 809 people were in hospital. Of these, 75 were seriously ill and required oxygen, and nine were in intensive care. The majority of seriously ill patients were older than 66, according to the Ministry of Health.

Eighty-one per cent of the entire population is fully vaccinated – excluding under-12s, it is 90% – and the number of seriously ill patients is fairly low overall. Just four people have died in the past 28 days, all of whom were unvaccinated, according to the health ministry.

However, the number of those seriously ill is increasing. The number of patients requiring oxygen doubled to 54 on Sunday from two days before, an important gauge to judge whether the medical system could get overwhelmed.[...]"

Mandryka

#5355
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 26, 2021, 12:20:56 AM
Singapore reports worst daily Covid case tally in more than a year

"[...]As of Tuesday, a total of 809 people were in hospital. Of these, 75 were seriously ill and required oxygen, and nine were in intensive care. The majority of seriously ill patients were older than 66, according to the Ministry of Health.

Eighty-one per cent of the entire population is fully vaccinated – excluding under-12s, it is 90% – and the number of seriously ill patients is fairly low overall. Just four people have died in the past 28 days, all of whom were unvaccinated, according to the health ministry.

However, the number of those seriously ill is increasing. The number of patients requiring oxygen doubled to 54 on Sunday from two days before, an important gauge to judge whether the medical system could get overwhelmed.[...]"

Sure, so now we're in a real difficult area, but an unavoidable one IMO. First there's the question of how many seriously ill covid patients the health system can support - complex because a health system is very big  and you can always find some room by moving the furniture around - you rob Peter to pay Paul.

And secondly, and much more problematically, you have to judge whether the health costs of an open society are counterbalanced by the social and economic benefits.

As I said, there is no avoiding these decisions - and there is no right answer IMO. The whole world is between a rock and a hard place.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SimonNZ

#5356
Hospitals in most countries have already been cut back so much over the last decades that they were operating at near or right on full capacity in non pandemic times.

And you can possibly find more rooms and perhaps you can create the infrastructure for those rooms and buy equipment in time - though highly unlikely - but they definitely can not magic up new doctors and nurses. Any retirees and qualified people who had changed jobs were already rounded up at the start of the outbreak. And burnout and infection mean the numbers can only go down.

Mandryka

#5357
Quote from: SimonNZ on September 26, 2021, 01:51:52 AM
Hospitals in most countries have already been cut back so they are operating at near or right on full capacity in non pandemic times.

And you can possibly find more rooms and perhaps you can create the I frastructure for those rooms and buy equipment in time - though highly unlikely - but they definitely can not magic up new doctors and nurses.

What you do is you tell people who need elective procedures they'll have to wait longer. There may be staffing problems, people will have to do jobs which they're not fully qualified for, they'll learn on the job.  The quality of the public health service will reduce - that's all part of the cost.

At some point the people with the power have to say: when hospitalisations reach X we just have to put the brakes on. But that X is a value judgement - it involves deciding what sort of health system you want to offer the people - how many compromises you are prepared to make. Longer wait for a hip replacement, some cancer patients slip through the net and die sooner as a result,  but society stays open longer.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

SimonNZ

Well that's not a world I want to live on.

And you do realize that "the powers that be" there will be governments making and implementing and enforcing these sweeping changes, right?

amw

In relation to the vaccine passport thing: in New Zealand, I was asked for proof of vaccination several times, despite it not being legally necessary (& the rate of vaccination still being quite low at the time), including when travelling. At the moment, I'm overseas in a city with a well-publicised vaccine mandate, including a vaccine passport app and signs outside most establishments announcing that proof of vaccination will be necessary to enter. I've only once been asked to actually present proof of vaccination, didn't have it with me on that occasion, and was waved through anyway with the person (a cashier) saying "sorry, we just gotta ask everyone that".

In New Zealand almost everyone wore masks when required to. Here in the USA I've seen people remove masks even directly underneath signs instructing them to wear masks, with authority figures not caring (except again in one case, in a library; the librarian on duty did ask people to wear masks if they weren't, and they complied while within her line of sight, but probably not otherwise).

I'm not sure what this means or whether it is related to the very high COVID-19 death toll in the USA compared to other countries where mask-wearing is more socially acceptable and vaccine passports are more strictly enforced. This death toll may after all be more related to problems with the American health system, or other factors; I'd be curious to know what mask use, vaccine restrictions, etc are like in other countries that continue to be severely affected (Mexico, Russia, Iran) or countries that had very severe outbreaks which have been effectively reduced in severity (India, Indonesia, Peru).