Coronavirus thread

Started by JBS, March 12, 2020, 07:03:50 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 17, 2022, 10:14:51 AM
Not an issue. Have a great week and enjoy beer, Andrei!

Thanks, you too. I don't drink beer during winter, though, only wine and occasionally a shot or two of strong drink.  :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Dry Brett Kavanaugh


Karl Henning

When being unvaccinated means being locked out of public life

By Chico Harlan and Stefano Pitrelli
Today at 9:37 a.m. EST

OSIGO, Italy — After many rounds of rules targeting the unvaccinated, the chamber musician's new life is unrecognizable from the old. Claudio Ronco once performed all over Europe, but now he can't even board a plane. He can't check into a hotel, eat at restaurant or get a coffee at a bar. Most important, he can't use the water taxis needed to get around Venice, his home for 30 years — a loss of mobility that recently prompted him to gather up two of his prized cellos, lock up his Venetian apartment and retreat with his wife to a home owned by his in-laws one hour away in the hills.

"Isolation," Ronco called it, on the fourth day in a row that he hadn't left the house.

At this complicated stage of the pandemic, the lives of unvaccinated people are in major flux, at the mercy of decisions made everywhere from courts to workplaces. But their lives are changing most dramatically in a handful of countries in Western Europe, including Italy, where governments are systematically reducing their liberties, while beginning to return the rest of society to a state of normalcy. And while regular testing, until recently, was permitted as an alternative to vaccination, even that option has now been largely removed as countries harden their mandates. For people like Ronco, the choice is to get inoculated or face exclusion.

Ronco, 66, knows some people who have relented, including a fellow musician with three kids and a mortgage. He knows others who are scrambling for hard-to-get medical exemptions. But Ronco — an Orthodox Jew and a specialist in 18th-century music who tends to distrust the trends of the masses — figures this is an instance when he can try to withstand the mounting pressure. His savings are thinning, but not gone. His children are grown. His wife, Emanuela Vozza, a fellow cellist, also unvaccinated, feels as he does. So day after day, his resistance has continued: A musician who once played at Milan's famed La Scala has been instead working alongside Vozza, editing recordings they've made in their countryside living room, unable for the foreseeable future to perform for a crowd.

"Even in a public square, it would be impossible," he said, because he and the audience would still need the Green Pass, the European digital vaccination card.

He gestured at the forest beyond his in-laws' home. He has found himself in recent days dreaming of putting on a concert in a clearing in the woods.

"I could put out a call on Facebook and hope nobody comes to break it up," Ronco said.

Some of the unvaccinated people Ronco knows keep a low profile. Ronco understands why: Their decisions have been criticized vehemently by politicians, by virologists, even by Pope Francis. Days ago, Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi said the unvaccinated are responsible for "most of the problems we have today," disproportionately occupying intensive care beds.

"We're flat-earthers," Ronco said, describing the view of people like himself that has taken hold. "With total disrespect for the system and humanity itself."

But Ronco says leaders are overlooking how their moves are cleaving society into two groups, one accepted and one not. As Italy, over months, built up its Green Pass rules — first for indoor dining, then for workplaces, then for public transit and much more — Ronco turned his Facebook page into a mix of Torah passages, cello movements and fiery claims about government overreach. He re-shared the testimony of various vaccine skeptics and in the process lost roughly 1,500 of his 5,000 followers, only to find new friend requests pouring in — presumably from people who were more like-minded.

Most of that churn didn't matter to him. But one consequence struck a painful chord. He'd been close friends with an expert Italian stringmaker — "we were like brothers," Ronco said. When Ronco visited the string factory several months ago, his friend had enforced masking and distancing and temperature checks. But the visit, Ronco felt, had been warm.

Then, a few days ago, the stringmaker unfriended Ronco on social media.

To Ronco, it was one more form of isolation setting in.

"This is somebody I've known for 30 years," he said quietly. "There is no bridge from one side to the other."

Green Pass is seen as oppressive to some, freeing for others

More than an hour away, in Ronco's old Venetian neighborhood, the little local bars were filled with people drinking cheap cocktails and snacking on cicchetti — all after showing the Green Pass. This is the city where Ronco raised two children from an earlier marriage. It is the city that came to feel like home, far more than even Turin, where he grew up. But on this evening, Ronco's apartment was dark, and the lights were coming instead from a 16th-century rowhouse belonging to his neighbor, Claudio Ambrosini, vaccinated three times.

Ambrosini, a composer of contemporary music, said he considers Ronco a "courageous" musician, creative and willing to buck trends. In past years, Ronco played the cello at Ambrosini's dinner parties. But when they last saw one another, on the street in Venice, Ambrosini asked Ronco whether he'd finally gotten vaccinated — and was disappointed with the response. Ambrosini told Ronco he was making the wrong choice.

For Ambrosini, 73, the decision about vaccination is clear-cut. He spent the pandemic's first year scared of getting severely sick, while planning for concerts only to see them canceled. Vaccination brought personal relief. But he also sees getting inoculated as part of the social contract. He says the new Green Pass rules are benevolent, not dystopian. The rules have helped to convince some holdouts, and are among the factors in Italy's vaccination rate being one of the highest in Europe.

Ambrosini is required to present his Green Pass to take the four-hour train ride to Rome for concerts. He uses the pass three times a week to enter an indoor swimming pool. He doesn't yet feel completely secure; he still wears a double mask. But the Green Pass has made his life in Venice tenable.

In his neighborhood, the rosy brick buildings have endured for centuries, and at night, the reflections of those buildings ripple in the water, ever changing. Ambrosini said the contrasts of the environment — hard and soft, permanent and fleeting — have seeped into his music. He said he considers Venice the ideal city for a musician.

The sun was setting, and Ambrosini craned his neck for a look outside, toward the canal and a nearby wooden bridge.

"Claudio's apartment is just over that way," the composer said. "You can practically see it from here."

Why remain unvaccinated?

Ronco is an irrepressible storyteller, folding history and religion into even the most direct questions. Asked what year his cello was built, he first answered succinctly: "1745." But the story was only beginning. He described the heyday of string instrument craftsmanship in 18th-century Italy. He described how the instrument made its way from one country and the next, until it was apprehended by Nazi soldiers and transported to the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Jewish prisoners were forced to perform. He described how it was repaired after wartime damage and how, even after he obtained it, he briefly felt uncertain about conjuring the sounds of a haunted place.

When he finished his account, he took out his bow. Soon, in the empty living room, Ronco's right arm was dancing, and rosin dust floated through the sunlight.

So began the fifth consecutive day in which he didn't leave the house.

Faced with the direct question of why he is unvaccinated, Ronco again has stories — many of them. Over hours, he talked about potential medical consequences of the jab and alternative methods for boosting the immune system. He touted Vladimir Zelenko, a New York doctor tending to a Hasidic Jewish community, who became world famous for devising an experimental treatment that included hydroxychloroquine. He raged about the new divisions in society and even invoked the Nazi-era Aryan passport document.

But Ronco also made it clear that his resistance comes naturally. It fits with the story he's set for his own life: as an unconventional performer.

As a teenager, he paused his studies at Turin's elite music conservatory, moved to India and spent several years living with a teacher who taught him the sitar and non-Western music. He applied his against-the-grain philosophies not just in music, but in health. After a pair of 2007 heart attacks, he said, doctors recommended a daily regimen of 19 pills that he'd need to take for the rest of his life. But Ronco said he "rebelled" and stopped with the pills cold turkey, even fearful that the decision might kill him. Instead, his body regained its equilibrium.

"They wanted me to be on a bench for the rest of my life feeding pigeons," Ronco said. "I wasn't ready for that."

"It can't go on like this," Ronco said after he finished playing, where Vozza had joined in.

"[The government] is pushing so hard on us," Vozza said. "We committed no crime. But we are not free — not completely free."

The constraints are about to get even tighter. In coming weeks, Italy will also mandate its Green Pass at banks, stores and the post office, where Ronco and Vozza sometimes send their CDs to fans. (In those places — unlike restaurants, bars and transit — Italy will still accept a negative test.) Starting in mid-February, Italy will also impose a 100-euro fine on anybody older than 50 who isn't vaccinated. Ronco said he'll pay.

There's a chance, Ronco surmised, that the Italian coronavirus rules are fleeting: that the virus becomes accepted as endemic and the Green Pass rules are reeled back in. But he isn't sure. The virus keeps changing. The state of emergency keeps getting extended. He and his wife could be holed up for months, or years. Recently, Ronco started thinking about the possibility of moving elsewhere — to a country that didn't have rules for the unvaccinated.

It was just a down-the-road possibility, Ronco said.

But if it happened, he could already picture the first leg: They'd have to leave Italy by car.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Madiel

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 17, 2022, 01:22:08 PM
alternative methods for boosting the immune system.

At this point I sighed.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Florestan

What amazes and saddens me is that some people --- I'm not reffering to anyone here --- not only do not oppose such draconian, absurd and inhumane restrictions, but on the contrary relish them and are only too eager to see them implemented in their own country in case they are not in place already.

With each passing day I'm more and more convinced that Romania is one of the freest countries in the EU. Not that there are no restrictions at all, but to be forced out of work and confined to virtual house arrest because unvaccinated is unthinkable here, now and in any foreseeable future.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on January 17, 2022, 01:06:34 PM
Ex. Post. News

1. No Vaccine No French Open. No exemption.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/no-vaccine-no-french-open-djokovic-says-french-sports-ministry-2022-01-17/

2. Djokovic's sponsor Lacoste (and possibly other sponsors) plans to examine the Australian event.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/17/business/novak-djokovic-lacoste-australia/index.html
*I heard yesterday about changes in rules in France and how that would effect the French Open.  Hadn't heard about the sponsors though, but it makes sense.  They obviously would have concerns whether or not he'll be playing again and probably also where (like Lacoste and the French Open--that would be a huge one for him to miss in their eyes).

Well, Novak will have to make some very important decisions and very soon if he wants to continue playing tennis.

*I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day and I mentioned that the other opens and important tennis tournaments (at the least) would certainly be examining their rules and making changes if need be as in absolutely no ambiguity/loopholes for getting admitted into the tournament and making sure that all would be communicated CLEARLY to all parties involved.  They absolutely do NOT want a repeat of what happened in Australia!  He heartily agreed saying that "They would be idiots if they didn't".  I suspect that (at least in current circumstances) it will be a case of needing to be double-vaccinated and needing to provide proof of that.  Boosters required?  I haven't heard anything about those yet.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2022, 01:58:07 AM
What amazes and saddens me is that some people --- I'm not reffering to anyone here --- not only do not oppose such draconian, absurd and inhumane restrictions, but on the contrary relish them and are only too eager to see them implemented in their own country in case they are not in place already.

With each passing day I'm more and more convinced that Romania is one of the freest countries in the EU. Not that there are no restrictions at all, but to be forced out of work and confined to virtual house arrest because unvaccinated is unthinkable here, now and in any foreseeable future.
What sort of restrictions are there currently in Romania?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

MusicTurner

#6788
Apparently, there's no central website about the various restrictions and entry requirements in different countries, as opposed to the degree of how corona has struck in them (as regards the official stats). It would be convenient to have such a restrictions source, but also require a good deal of daily maintenance.

https://romaniatourism.com/travel-advisory.html says

"To reduce the impacts of COVID-19 on the health care system, stop the spread, and increase vaccination rates, the following rules / public health restrictions will be in effect, until February 8, 2022:

* Locals and visitors must wear a mask when in all indoor spaces as well as in outdoor spaces, where physical distancing - at least 10 ft. - is not possible
(public transport stations, open-air markets, open-air concerts/ events)
* An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to access all public institutions and non-essential stores/ shopping malls/ performing arts centres.
Access to pharmacies and food stores (except those located in shopping malls) does not require a proof of vaccination/ recent Covid recovery.

* Restaurants and entertainment/ recreation facilities will operate at limited capacity and, only between the hours of 5 a.m. and 10 p.m., as follows:
~ Restaurants and coffee shops - 30% capacity, for indoor and outdoor dining.
~ Performing arts centres/ movie theatres, fitness facilities and playgrounds - 30% capacity.
Bars and clubs must stay closed, until further notice.

An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to check-in in hotels/ B&Bs or to have meals in restaurants.


Florestan

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 18, 2022, 02:07:43 AM
What sort of restrictions are there currently in Romania?

PD

Covid Pass (vaccination, recovery, negative test) for bars, restaurant, caffes, theaters, cinemas, museums, malls and some other places, including some government bulidings.

Mask mandate outdoor (more or less complied with and enforced) and indoor public places (enforced).

No Covid Pass whatsoever for going to work, food & beverage stores, small non-food stores, pharmacies, banks, post offices. No Covid Pass whatsoever for using domestic public transportation (I'm not sure about planes).

Schools are open and will remain so. Some universities were mandating Covid Pass for attending but their mandate was overturned by several courts of law*.

In short, that Italian cellist could keep living his usual life, apart from some minor inconveniences. He could even keep his friends, because the social divide between vaccinated and unvaccinated is negligible. I personally know, or heard of, no vaccinated people who broke with their unvaccinated friends, including at direct meeting level.

* btw, there is no legal background for imposing and enforcing even those restrictions because the so-called "state of alarm" which the government declared since autumn 2020 and on the basis of which they were adopted was declared unconstitutional and illegal by several courts of law too. The govenment's appeal is pending and will probably be heard ad calendas graecas.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: MusicTurner on January 18, 2022, 02:26:43 AM
* An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to access all public institutions and non-essential stores

No longer in force, there are now several exemptions for public institutions. Plus, most non-essential stores, especially in small cities and rural areas, while advertising on the front door that you need a Covid Pass to enter, will never ask you for one.

Quote
An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to check-in in hotels/ B&Bs

Yes, I forgot about hotels.

All in all, if you consider both the relatively mild restrictions and their lax enforcement, life for most unvaccinated people in Romania is business as usual save minor inconveniences.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: MusicTurner on January 18, 2022, 02:26:43 AM
Apparently, there's no central website about the various restrictions and entry requirements in different countries, as opposed to the degree of how corona has struck in them (as regards the official stats). It would be convenient to have such a restrictions source, but also require a good deal of daily maintenance.

https://romaniatourism.com/travel-advisory.html says

"To reduce the impacts of COVID-19 on the health care system, stop the spread, and increase vaccination rates, the following rules / public health restrictions will be in effect, until February 8, 2022:

* Locals and visitors must wear a mask when in all indoor spaces as well as in outdoor spaces, where physical distancing - at least 10 ft. - is not possible
(public transport stations, open-air markets, open-air concerts/ events)
* An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to access all public institutions and non-essential stores/ shopping malls/ performing arts centres.
Access to pharmacies and food stores (except those located in shopping malls) does not require a proof of vaccination/ recent Covid recovery.

* Restaurants and entertainment/ recreation facilities will operate at limited capacity and, only between the hours of 5 a.m. and 10 p.m., as follows:
~ Restaurants and coffee shops - 30% capacity, for indoor and outdoor dining.
~ Performing arts centres/ movie theatres, fitness facilities and playgrounds - 30% capacity.
Bars and clubs must stay closed, until further notice.

An EU covid digital certificate or proof of Covid infection in the past 180 days or a negative Covid test is needed to check-in in hotels/ B&Bs or to have meals in restaurants.

Interesting, so you could have had a very mild case of Covid  and be unvaccinated and still be able to do a lot of things?  It doesn't say though how far in advance one needs to get tested too.  In any event, thanks for the info!

And yes, a central world database would be lovely, but imagine the logistics?  And what if it were hacked too?  And, as Madiel had mentioned previously, In Australia (for example), there are differences between the states in terms of rules too.

Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2022, 02:41:43 AM
No longer in force, there are now several exemptions for public institutions. Plus, most non-essential stores, especially in small cities and rural areas, while advertising on the front door that you need a Covid Pass to enter, will never ask you for one.

Yes, I forgot about hotels.

All in all, if you consider both the relatively mild restrictions and their lax enforcement, life for most unvaccinated people in Romania is business as usual save minor inconveniences.
Ah, we were both typing at the same time!  Thanks for the further info Andrei.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Madiel

Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2022, 02:35:30 AM
* btw, there is no legal background for imposing and enforcing even those restrictions because the so-called "state of alarm" which the government declared since autumn 2020 and on the basis of which they were adopted was declared unconstitutional and illegal by several courts of law too. The govenment's appeal is pending and will probably be heard ad calendas graecas.

Yes, well, if you have a decision that restrictions can't be legally enforced, that does rather discourage the imposition of legal restrictions.

As far as I'm aware every single legal challenge to government restrictions here in Australia has failed. The only successful challenged I'm aware of have been to company-imposed requirements, for example on the basis that the company didn't consult properly as required by a workplace agreement.

Certain politicians appear to have been rather surprised by the width of powers under legislation that parliaments had previously passed. At the federal level, the legislation was only revamped in 2015. It seems clear now that various people didn't pay attention to the laws that they were passing, probably because they didn't turn their mind to them ever being used in this sort of context (as opposed to, say, the kind of quarantine that we routinely apply to goods to maintain our agricultural sector).
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Florestan

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 18, 2022, 02:44:26 AM
Interesting, so you could have had a very mild case of Covid  and be unvaccinated and still be able to do a lot of things?

Yes, that';s true. I actually am sure that the number of people who recovered from Covid, is far larger than the official figure, precisely because they had (very) mild cases and didn't care to get tested and registered.

QuoteIt doesn't say though how far in advance one needs to get tested too. 

I think the term is 72 hours prior to entrance in the location, but I'm not sure.


QuoteAh, we were both typing at the same time!  Thanks for the further info Andrei.

PD

You're welcome, PD.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

MusicTurner

#6794
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 18, 2022, 02:44:26 AM
(...)

And yes, a central world database would be lovely, but imagine the logistics?  And what if it were hacked too?  And, as Madiel had mentioned previously, In Australia (for example), there are differences between the states in terms of rules too.
(...)

PD

Indeed, nonetheless the worldwide corona databases have overall been impressively managed. But of course, it's easier to sectionize simple numbers, rather than restrictions. The generated website traffic might produce some modest profits, but people would probably often also double-check with local, official pages as well.

Florestan

Quote from: Madiel on January 18, 2022, 02:47:14 AM
Yes, well, if you have a decision that restrictions can't be legally enforced, that does rather discourage the imposition of legal restrictions.

Well, very many people have been fined since 2020 for not complying with various restrictions but each and every one of those people who challenged them in courts won: all their fines were cancelled.

Plus, there are restrictions that are simply unenforceable, for instance mandating that people wear only FFP2 or surgical masks. This one in particular resulted in an uproar from the very police trade unions which announced they are not qualified to know the difference between the various types of masks and there is no intention on their part to take off people's masks in order to assess their compliance with the regulation. Therefore they will fine nobody. Nevertheless, some fines were applied but there's no doubt they will be cancelled in court if challenged.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2022, 02:35:30 AM
Covid Pass (vaccination, recovery, negative test) for bars, restaurant, caffes, theaters, cinemas, museums, malls and some other places, including some government bulidings.

Mask mandate outdoor (more or less complied with and enforced) and indoor public places (enforced).

No Covid Pass whatsoever for going to work, food & beverage stores, small non-food stores, pharmacies, banks, post offices. No Covid Pass whatsoever for using domestic public transportation (I'm not sure about planes).

Schools are open and will remain so. Some universities were mandating Covid Pass for attending but their mandate was overturned by several courts of law*.

In short, that Italian cellist could keep living his usual life, apart from some minor inconveniences. He could even keep his friends, because the social divide between vaccinated and unvaccinated is negligible. I personally know, or heard of, no vaccinated people who broke with their unvaccinated friends, including at direct meeting level.

* btw, there is no legal background for imposing and enforcing even those restrictions because the so-called "state of alarm" which the government declared since autumn 2020 and on the basis of which they were adopted was declared unconstitutional and illegal by several courts of law too. The govenment's appeal is pending and will probably be heard ad calendas graecas.

Sounds draconian to me! Come to Great Britain Little England.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on January 18, 2022, 03:10:14 AM
Sounds draconian to me! Come to Great Britain Little England.

Tell us more, please. What restrictions, if any, are there?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Mandryka

#6798
Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2022, 03:15:55 AM
Tell us more, please. What restrictions, if any, are there?

Masks in school, on public transport and public indoor venues, other than hospitality. Work at home if you can. We all expect these will be ditched on 26 January.

The thing to add about the context is that we had an excellent level of 2x vaccinated and a good level of 3x vaccinated.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Madiel

Well, with England you're talking about a country where the plan at the start of the pandemic was to just let things rip and reach herd immunity... until people started pointing out just how many deaths that would involve and how herd immunity really requires vaccines to be achievable anyway...
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!