USA Politics

[Karl Henning]

Bernie hasn't given a sensible accounting of exactly how his MFA will be paid for.

Hence, one description of Bernie's primary campaign as "The Children's Crusade."

If leftists gain significant power in this country, the backlash will unfortunately be huge.

A big reason why Obama/Biden moved so carefully, and reached across the aisle for the ACA, which, of course, our friend regards as "Democrats being afraid to use power."

[milk]

I get all that, but I don't know how it gets passed.

Japan has a system wherein big companies carry full time workers on one plan, and part-time or temporary workers have a different plan. Everyone contributes. Medicine is cheap. I'm on three types of migraine medicines that cost me about twenty dollars for three months. Each visit to the neurologist costs me about eight dollars. I haven't heard of long waits here but there are deficiencies; however, I suspect many of the drawbacks are due to cultural factors. I can see any Dr and change Drs and hospitals at will. We changed hospitals for my wife's pregnancy in the middle of it because we weren't satisfied with the hospital.
Japan has the highest debt in the developed world but this is because of rapid aging and declining population. It needs immigration. I think the Japanese are satisfied with healthcare. It's not really single-payer per se.
sadly,I don't think the US will ever adopt such a system. I'm glad I'm not there. Life is stressful enough without having to live with the fear of financial doom because of illness.

[Karl Henning]

Japan has a system wherein big companies carry full time workers on one plan, and part-time or temporary workers have a different plan. Everyone contributes. Medicine is cheap. I'm on three types of migraine medicines that cost me about twenty dollars for three months. Each visit to the neurologist costs me about eight dollars. I haven't heard of long waits here but there are deficiencies; however, I suspect many of the drawbacks are due to cultural factors. I can see any Dr and change Drs and hospitals at will. We changed hospitals for my wife's pregnancy in the middle of it because we weren't satisfied with the hospital.
Japan has the highest debt in the developed world but this is because of rapid aging and declining population. It needs immigration. I think the Japanese are satisfied with healthcare. It's not really single-payer per se.
sadly,I don't think the US will ever adopt such a system. I'm glad I'm not there. Life is stressful enough without having to live with the fear of financial doom because of illness.

It will be interesting to see what Senator Sanders will propose;  the hard left won't be happy with Biden's centrism, but that is the only realistic path.

[Daverz]

Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left".  The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority",  the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party.  Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.

[Karl Henning]

Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left".  The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority",  the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party.  Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.

All too true.

[drogulus]

     Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?

[Daverz]

Someone mentioned a backlash to the "Left".  The backlash has been happening most of my life, starting with the backlash to the civil rights movement, Nixon in '68 with "Law and Order" and the Southern Strategy, Phyllis Schlafly and backlash against the ERA, the Reagan Revolution, the "Moral Majority",  the rise of right wing radio, Newt Gingrich's Contract On America, Bush II, birtherism and the Tea Party.  Trumpism is just a distillation of all that.

I forgot the whole nothingburger Whitewater thing and impeachment over a blow job.  Probably blocked it out.  And, OK, impeachment over lying about a blow job.  It sounds so quaint and Victorian now.

[Daverz]

     Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?

With your life, of course.

[Karl Henning]

     Howyougonna pay for Trump's health care plan?

The non-plan plan?

You pay for it with 300K American lives.

[Karl Henning]

With your life, of course.

Beat me to it!

[71 dB]

The basic problem is that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care - they're only willing to pay to the extent that they feel they will need it themselves. Healthy Americans aren't going to want to pay huge taxes to cover the cost of health care for people who need it more than they do.

About 2/3 of Americans support Medicare for all so looks like a lot of people understand paying a little more in public taxes saves a lot of money on corporate taxes (premiums, co-pays and deductibles) and allows a better healthcare system. The claim that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care is more of a corporate/right-wing talking point than reality.

Bernie hasn't given a sensible accounting of exactly how his MFA will be paid for.

The same way single payer healthcare is paid in my country: Taxes. There is no other way to finance a single payer system. Bernie has been totally open about this. You pay more public taxes and less corporate taxes. Most people save money in the process.

And yes, other developed countries have found a way to make it work - but they don't have the rather selfish, individualistic culture that we do. They also pay less for things like prescriptions. I have no proof of this, but I've long suspected that we (Americans) subsidize the lower cost that they pay. Those profits then pay for extravagant marketing so that big pharma can make even more profits from (primarily) Americans, at our premium price.

Culture can change. If it can't then nothing can ever change. Do you want low public taxes and high corporate taxes or high public taxes and low corporate taxes? The latter saves you from potential bankrupt when you get sick. Your choice. Choose wisely. In other countries drugs are not marketed. It's illegal, because it doesn't make any sense. Your doctor says what drugs you take. There is no need to market anything! You take your pills because your doctor says you need to take them. Prices are regulated and get low for patients so people can afford them.

They're fine with it as long as they can get away with paying what they think it's worth to them. Depending on their employer, many people have only a minuscule deduction from their paycheck toward health insurance. The plan generally sucks, even compared with what MFA would provide - but as long as they're healthy, they consider it acceptable.

Yeah, if you are healthy you don't need healthcare, but you don't know what happens in the future. One day you have cancer and then you need healthcare. We don't know who gets cancer and who doesn't, but we can do risk pools. Everyone pays into it and whoever is unlucky gets the treatment needed. Kind of unlucky lottery.

If leftists gain significant power in this country, the backlash will unfortunately be huge. We have Trump, in large part, because we had a Black president before him. White Nationalism reared its ugly head in reaction. That's not the only reason, of course, but it may have tilted the scales just enough. Add to that a fatally flawed candidate (HRC) totally out of touch with middle America's problems (and contempt for the people in "flyover country"), and voila.

No, the US has Trump because the previous President wasn't the progressive he claimed to be, but a corporate hack who didn't do even public option, but originally a Republican healthcare plan. The oligarchs just make all of this look like a cultural war when it's a class war: The oligarchs against regular people. That's how they keep the working class devided and powerless.

You are totally right about Hillary being out of touch. She is part of the oligarchs Obama was.

The belief that a government can incur whatever debt it wants as long as it can pay it off in its own currency (that it can print at will) is a very dangerous one and may well destroy this country IMO. And yes, we pay for our military by either borrowing the money... or by printing it. Both very poor options.

The real dangers are elsewhere. Again, the debt is right-wing talking point to stop all proposals that would help regulat people. Can't do that. Can't do this. War? YES! Endless MONEY!!! The increase to military budget alone could pay for free college, but bombing brown people in the middle east is of course much more important than education.

Historically when Republicans are in power debt increases and when Democrats are in power debt decreases

[Todd]

The increase to military budget alone could pay for free college

You clearly have no idea how much Americans spend on higher education.

[milk]

Republicans will replace RBG but Democrats hold the trump cards – no, really

"America's political institutions are currently biased – in many cases quite aggressively – in favor of conservatives."

"Unless they never again win the House, Senate and White House simultaneously, the constitution gives Democrats plenty of ways to restore our democracy even without resorting to McConnellism or Trumpism. They can expand the electorate by restoring the Voting Rights Act, making voter registration universal, and passing comprehensive immigration reform. They can blunt (if not entirely offset) the GOP's Senate advantage by granting statehood, and two senators apiece, to Puerto Rico and Washington DC. They can undo the effects of McConnell's court-packing by expanding the bench – not just the supreme court, but lower courts as well."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/23/republicans-democrats-trump-mcconnell-ruth-bader-ginsburg-supreme-court

[71 dB]

You clearly have no idea how much Americans spend on higher education.

You are very quick to point out other people know nothing, but you never give any information to correct/educate us. You tell me how much. The figure I have from the "left-wing propaganda" channels is $60 billion per year while the increase to the military budget was something like $80 billion. Now, please fact check me and give me the real numbers or stop telling me I have no idea...

[Todd]

You are very quick to point out other people know nothing, but you never give any information to correct/educate us. You tell me how much. The figure I have from the "left-wing propaganda" channels is $60 billion per year while the increase to the military budget was something like $80 billion. Now, please fact check me and give me the real numbers or stop telling me I have no idea...

People should do their own homework.  The feds and the states publish much data.  You need to stop relying on mush brained lefties for what you consider news.  You won't.

[71 dB]

People should do their own homework.  The feds and the states publish much data.  You need to stop relying on mush brained lefties for what you consider news.  You won't.

Still nothing from you except belittleling others. Here is a link to support my claims, althou I have to admit I had my $60 billion figure a bit wrong since this article says $47 billion per year, but that just means the increase to military budget would pay for tuition free public colleges and universities even easier!

So, until you give some numbers or links to them I am to only one here showing some homework done.

[Todd]

So, until you give some numbers or links to them I am to only one here showing some homework done.

The NCES has different figures. 

In 2017–18, degree-granting postsecondary institutions in the United States spent $604 billion (in current dollars). Total expenses were $385 billion at public institutions, $207 billion at private nonprofit institutions, and $12 billion at private for-profit institutions.

You have absolutely no idea what you are going on about.  At least the scribbler in the Intercept article mentioned tuition.  You don't even understand the basics.

[71 dB]

The NCES has different figures. 

You have absolutely no idea what you are going on about.  At least the scribbler in the Intercept article mentioned tuition.  You don't even understand the basics.

You are talking about Expenditures. I am talking about how much the students pay. Most of the expenditures come from the government (that's why they are PUBLIC schools). With the $47 billion per year 100 % of the expenditures would come from the government and students would pay nothing out of pocket (tuition free).

Anyway, thanks for finally giving something. 

[krummholz]

About 2/3 of Americans support Medicare for all so looks like a lot of people understand paying a little more in public taxes saves a lot of money on corporate taxes (premiums, co-pays and deductibles) and allows a better healthcare system.

Sorry, but that's a non sequitur. Yes, the majority of Americans want MFA - heck, *I* would like MFA - but that doesn't remotely imply that they understand anything about what it will take to actually pay for it. Which, as I implied in my last post, I strongly suspect will be a fair sight more than European taxpayers pay for their single-payer system, in part because we lack the leverage to negotiate an equally low price with big pharma.

The claim that Americans aren't willing to subsidize the cost of OTHERS' health care is more of a corporate/right-wing talking point than reality.

In this country, too, highly partisan people call every argument they disagree with a "talking point" of the other side. It doesn't really advance the discussion to resort to that kind of rejoinder.

The same way single payer healthcare is paid in my country: Taxes. There is no other way to finance a single payer system. Bernie has been totally open about this. You pay more public taxes and less corporate taxes. Most people save money in the process.

Yes, but Bernie's math has been widely disputed. The question is what level of public taxes would be required. My understanding is we're talking about double digit increases to the personal tax rate of most citizens. That is just not going to happen in this country. If we get MFA, it will be paid for by kicking the can down the road - not a road I want to see us take.

Culture can change. If it can't then nothing can ever change. Do you want low public taxes and high corporate taxes or high public taxes and low corporate taxes? The latter saves you from potential bankrupt when you get sick. Your choice. Choose wisely. In other countries drugs are not marketed. It's illegal, because it doesn't make any sense. Your doctor says what drugs you take. There is no need to market anything! You take your pills because your doctor says you need to take them. Prices are regulated and get low for patients so people can afford them.

Again, because of our free-market culture, things are very different here and are not likely to change soon. When today's college students are in control, in 20 years or so, then, maybe. Assuming the movement survives the inevitable backlash.

Yeah, if you are healthy you don't need healthcare, but you don't know what happens in the future. One day you have cancer and then you need healthcare. We don't know who gets cancer and who doesn't, but we can do risk pools. Everyone pays into it and whoever is unlucky gets the treatment needed. Kind of unlucky lottery.

Exactly right, hence why single payer is the best system - IF you can make it work and IF you can pay for it. If you can't, then it's headed for insolvency, sooner or later.

No, the US has Trump because the previous President wasn't the progressive he claimed to be, but a corporate hack who didn't do even public option, but originally a Republican healthcare plan. The oligarchs just make all of this look like a cultural war when it's a class war: The oligarchs against regular people. That's how they keep the working class devided and powerless.

Because he discovered that you can't be a full-out progressive and get anything done in government here. You have to compromise and build coalitions. Progress is always two steps forward, one (or 1.5) steps back. I don't want to even imagine the backlash if he had tried to push through a Bernie agenda (though I don't think he was originally THAT progressive anyway). What we have today is bad enough, and I think it would have largely happened had Obama been even more conservative.

The real dangers are elsewhere. Again, the debt is right-wing talking point to stop all proposals that would help regulat people. Can't do that. Can't do this. War? YES! Endless MONEY!!! The increase to military budget alone could pay for free college, but bombing brown people in the middle east is of course much more important than education.

Historically when Republicans are in power debt increases and when Democrats are in power debt decreases

Your last sentence is correct. It doesn't matter which party is in power. But I disagree that the debt is anyone's talking point - it's real, it has to be paid off eventually, and countries that fail to pay it off end up in deep trouble. Anyone who thinks that can't happen here is IMO living in a dream world.

Edit: whoops, I misread. No, historically debt increases when Democrats are in power too. The exception in recent times was Clinton.

[Todd]

You are talking about Expenditures. I am talking about how much the students pay. Most of the expenditures come from the government (that's why they are PUBLIC schools). With the $47 billion per year 100 % of the expenditures would come from the government and students would pay nothing out of pocket (tuition free).

Anyway, thanks for finally giving something. 

You said free college, not tuition.  There's a difference.  You obviously did not look at the NCES site.