USA Politics

[Karl Henning]

I'm not necessarily against any of this. I think restorative justice and conflict resolution programs are successful too. I just don't agree to fold this into an unquestionable intersectional ideology. I think the drift of the larger discourse is troubling and I think social media gives us a false view of reality.  it's a crucial question to ask what the larger context is. Either police are killing black people more as a murderous expression of white supremacy and we need to rush to dismantle the police force [...]

What about systemic reform, rather than "dismantling."

[milk]

What about systemic reform, rather than "dismantling."

I think reform is a good idea, yes. Ban the chokeholds maybe. There should be more deescalation and more coordination with social and medical services perhaps - like how they do it in England. All cops need to wear cameras and the cameras should always be accessible to the public. I think a bigger problem for society is probably the 3 strikes and the long prison sentences that do the opposite of rehabilitation. I don't feel qualified to say the causes of crime and disparities in the US but I'm worried that dogma and sensationalism are driving people's beliefs now. I'm inclined to think there's a combination of things and racism is a sliver of the problem. The US has all these increasing disparities in wealth. But I also think that not all, maybe not most, of the problems of black communities today are caused by today's white people or white supremacy though the root of some issues may indeed be traced back to problems of decades or centuries ago. This last sentence was very hard to write. The last part of that sentence is largely irrelevant.

[drogulus]

if you're saying nothing has improved in America for the last 50 years - I think it's hard to believe. I'm not saying there aren't many problems or that racism doesn't exist. I just feel more and more agnostic on the question America's current situation. I'm also pessimistic about the possibility of debate and reason.
Social media drives the moment and amplifies every incident, aberrant or otherwise.
Muhhamed isn't very convincing in his thesis that what we're seeing is the same as 50 years ago.

     The author discusses the history and notes what hasn't changed about how the police behave towards black people. That's not a thesis about nothing changing. It's evident to me that the author is correct about the "theory" of racialized policing. Behavior that persists for more than a century points towards an implicit doctrine of the kind the author outlines. If not his, than another very like it will explain the persistence of brutal behavior despite all of the studies and recommendations.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I think reform is a good idea, yes. Ban the chokeholds maybe. There should be more deescalation and more coordination with social and medical services perhaps - like how they do it in England. All cops need to wear cameras and the cameras should always be accessible to the public. I think a bigger problem for society is probably the 3 strikes and the long prison sentences that do the opposite of rehabilitation. I don't feel qualified to say the causes of crime and disparities in the US but I'm worried that dogma and sensationalism are driving people's beliefs now. I'm inclined to think there's a combination of things and racism is a sliver of the problem. The US has all these increasing disparities in wealth. But I also think that not all, maybe not most, of the problems of black communities today are caused by today's white people or white supremacy though the root of some issues may indeed be traced back to problems of decades or centuries ago. This last sentence was very hard to write. The last part of that sentence is largely irrelevant.

I think it is unquestionably so that systemic and situational racism has done a massive amount to getting African Americans a - whatever the opposite of a "head start" is. Even if we didn't have any racism at all now, we would still find the economic and social discrepancies to run through the society... and fairly neatly along color-lines. And even someone who wants to argue that today's society isn't particularly -- much less overwhelmingly or inherently -- racist, would have to admit that poor people have a tougher lot and draw the short end of the stick on so many issues. And are being prejudiced against. And if economic and social prejudice are "neatly" delineated along color lines...

Who's going to distinguish (or care to) between bigotry along racial lines and outright racism. Or economic/social disenfranchisement along racial lines and systemic racism. I tend to think it is probably to distinguish. Not to make us feel better about ourselves (oh, we're not racist, after all), but because I think the solutions to these very similar looking problems is different and we are doing everyone a disservice if we only look at it through the prism of the moral and righteous cause de jour... rather than as practical and result-oriented as we can.

[drogulus]

I think it is unquestionably so that systemic and situational racism has done a massive amount to getting African Americans a - whatever the opposite of a "head start" is. Even if we didn't have any racism at all now, we would still find the economic and social discrepancies to run through the society... and fairly neatly along color-lines. And even someone who wants to argue that today's society isn't particularly -- much less overwhelmingly or inherently -- racist, would have to admit that poor people have a tougher lot and draw the short end of the stick on so many issues. And are being prejudiced against. And if economic and social prejudice are "neatly" delineated along color lines...

Who's going to distinguish (or care to) between bigotry along racial lines and outright racism. Or economic/social disenfranchisement along racial lines and systemic racism. I tend to think it is probably to distinguish. Not to make us feel better about ourselves (oh, we're not racist, after all), but because I think the solutions to these very similar looking problems is different and we are doing everyone a disservice if we only look at it through the prism of the moral and righteous cause de jour... rather than as practical and result-oriented as we can.

     We should also consider alternative theories that can explain the historical record. Denial of the evidence isn't much of a theory to consider. Historians agree on the history of US racism far more than they disagree. For example, slavery, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, discrimination in housing and employment, and the record of police brutality are not controversial. They are all well documented.

     If conservatives don't want to hand the issue off to people they think are leftists, they will need to be at least as thorough and inclusive as the historians and social scientists they criticize.

[greg]

The key issues of the current right wing minority:

1. Everybody ought has to have a gun.
2. The universal solution to all problems is no government and no taxes.
3. If a person is poor it is because he is lazy and does not go to church.
4. Law and order.
5. Science that supports Darwin and climate change is bad.

I tried watching a left-wing type video on social justice ideology. Similar exaggerations were said. These are pretty much the most extreme examples, not the norm. Do people on the left even talk to people on the right?

In the video the guy interchangeably used the term "fascist" with "conservative," as if they are the same thing. Like I've been saying for years, no room for nuance, just tribalism. We're nothing but members of a tribe, not individuals after all, everyone on one side thinks a like, and it's the extreme opposite of the other side, so they don't deserve to have the future. 

[greg]

Here is an interesting graphic.
Are US citizens - of whatever colour - as safe as the citizens of any of these other wealthy countries?

And of course there is an even bigger picture that plays into this: social inequality - poverty - crime rates - proliferation of fire arms.The more there is of any of that, the less safe you are in general, and even more so if you are one of the disadvantaged in any society. Of wealthy nations, the USA as the wealthiest of them all scores relatively high on all points.

The more crime, the more police violence because of the more interactions between police and citizens.

Japan is safer because poverty/homelessness is extremely rare. There's no places that are even actually dangerous. In the US homelessness is rampant, to say the least.

Guns could be a factor, maybe, I wouldn't rule it out. Probably doesn't help. But the economic factor and social factors, like lack of social cohesion in the US vs. how socially cohesive Japan is, are almost definitely the biggest factors.

[Herman]

Clearly the big lesson of 2020  -  one could call it Vision 2020  -  is that life is best on big islands*.

New Zealand, Iceland, Japan, those are the good places.

* the UK is not an island. Ireland is.

[drogulus]

Guns could be a factor, maybe, I wouldn't rule it out. Probably doesn't help. But the economic factor and social factors, like lack of social cohesion in the US vs. how socially cohesive Japan is, are almost definitely the biggest factors.

     I don't disagree, and I think the brutal behavior of the police is consistent with other factors. Racism is the opposite of social cohesion. They are not alternatives. As for guns, they play the same role they always have. These are not disconnected phenomena.

     

[Todd]

Princeton Will Remove Woodrow Wilson's Name From School

Next stop, FDR. 

[greg]

Clearly the big lesson of 2020  -  one could call it Vision 2020  -  is that life is best on big islands*.

New Zealand, Iceland, Japan, those are the good places.

* the UK is not an island. Ireland is.

For real.

     I don't disagree, and I think the brutal behavior of the police is consistent with other factors. Racism is the opposite of social cohesion. They are not alternatives. As for guns, they play the same role they always have. These are not disconnected phenomena.

More integration might be the answer, it's just how do we get there? Segregation ended so many decades ago, yet there are still so many black communities.

When you have minority communities that clump up together next to other communities that are doing well off, there is always going to be a comparison that ends up negative. The reason of the difference will be debated by both sides endlessly and nothing will be done.

There's bad attitudes from different people. Some black people don't want to live next to white people because they don't like them. And then some white people don't want black people to live next to them for the same reason. Not sure how much that is a factor, but that is one thing that really doesn't help.

I think racism and tendency of some cops to be more brutal towards minorities could be reduced with more integration, because if that cop grew up in a 90% white community, they just might not look at the black person they are trying to arrest in the same way than if they grew up in a more diverse area.

[arpeggio]

I realize that this anecdotal but the following is based on my personnel odyssey concerning racism.

I grew up in a very segregated environment.  As a child I grew up in Euclid, Ohio and Midland, Michigan.  My father worked for Dow Corning and their headquarters is in Midland.  In 1961 he was transferred to Greensboro, NC (Dow Corning had a plant there).  When we moved to North Carolina it was still a very segregated society.  We even had colored payphones.  Even in North Carolina I had sparse interactions with black people.

When I was in the Army I started to really interact with black people.  Back then the integrated armed services was one of the few institutions were a black person could get ahead.  Our drill sergeant was a tremendous leader and he used his leadership skills to train us instead of yelling at us all the time like Full Metal Jacket.  He lived in the barracks and interacted with us after hours.  He is one of the finest men I have ever worked for. 

My oldest black friend is Dingwall Fleury.  He is the conductor of the McLean Symphony.  I have known and work with this gentleman for forty years.

I worked as a pension auditor for twenty-nine years with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.  I have worked with and for many blacks.  One of the best supervisors I had was a black women.

In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.

I would like to relate one incident that occurred while I was with the 75th Army Band.  We frequently did non-military gigs.  Once we performed a gig where we were requested to play "Dixie".  We got out of doing it but I remember the pain in the eyes of my black fellow musicians at the thought of having to perform this song.  To this day I do everything in my power to avoid playing "Dixie" out of respect to them.

 

[greg]

In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.

That's what I'm talking about... more integration is only a good thing.

I probably have a lack of understanding about heavily homogeneous communities since I grew up in a very diverse area... friends were white/black/hispanic/asian, and quite a few of each, so I didn't really care about stuff like that. It was just "whatever," I never gave much thought at all about how people looked...

Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you. 

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Brutality is actually an everyday event, and it happens to people who don't commit crimes. You don't hear about it because it's so common it doesn't get reported unless it's flagrant.

Police don't need to brutalize people while enforcing the law. Reform simply means to stop the police from brutalizing people. So yes, to oppose reform is to support brutality.

JBS and Dowder,

Case in point:  Do you know what happened to the former top 4 men's tennis player James Blake not all that long ago--a couple of years ago?  https://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-releases-video-cop-tackling-james-blake-mistaken/story?id=33687388

https://www.colorlines.com/articles/read-james-blakes-response-punishment-nypd-cop-who-assaulted-him

PD

[drogulus]

Identity politics is just alien to me. I wish people would stop obsessing over it... it starts to put thoughts in my head that don't belong... from living a lifetime where race is not really that important, to going to where people saying you should obsess about it is like going from being mentally free to being trapped in a box- that box being labeled as whatever people want to label you. 

    I don't think you should obsess about it. I don't, and everyone should be exactly like me or I'll call the police on them.

[Todd]

Orange County Democrats condemn 'racist' comments by John Wayne, call for airport to drop his name

No, not The Duke! 

[Jo498]

Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)

e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.

[bhodges]

I realize that this anecdotal but the following is based on my personnel odyssey concerning racism.

I grew up in a very segregated environment.  As a child I grew up in Euclid, Ohio and Midland, Michigan.  My father worked for Dow Corning and their headquarters is in Midland.  In 1961 he was transferred to Greensboro, NC (Dow Corning had a plant there).  When we moved to North Carolina it was still a very segregated society.  We even had colored payphones.  Even in North Carolina I had sparse interactions with black people.

When I was in the Army I started to really interact with black people.  Back then the integrated armed services was one of the few institutions were a black person could get ahead.  Our drill sergeant was a tremendous leader and he used his leadership skills to train us instead of yelling at us all the time like Full Metal Jacket.  He lived in the barracks and interacted with us after hours.  He is one of the finest men I have ever worked for. 

My oldest black friend is Dingwall Fleury.  He is the conductor of the McLean Symphony.  I have known and work with this gentleman for forty years.

I worked as a pension auditor for twenty-nine years with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.  I have worked with and for many blacks.  One of the best supervisors I had was a black women.

In my case working with blacks has made my aware of my latent racisms and hopefully purged it from me.

I would like to relate one incident that occurred while I was with the 75th Army Band.  We frequently did non-military gigs.  Once we performed a gig where we were requested to play "Dixie".  We got out of doing it but I remember the pain in the eyes of my black fellow musicians at the thought of having to perform this song.  To this day I do everything in my power to avoid playing "Dixie" out of respect to them.

Thank you for sharing this story.

--Bruce

[drogulus]

Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)

e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.

     I especially like Dead French King.

     Someone just sent me this:

"The hospital opened in Lakeville in 1860 as the Connecticut School for Imbeciles at Lakeville. Its name was changed to the Connecticut Training School for the Feebleminded at Lakeville in 1915. Two years later, it merged with the Connecticut Colony for Epileptics (founded at Mansfield in 1910) and acquired its present name."

     Mansfield Training School and Hospital is the (politically) correct name.

[Todd]

Why not get rid of all names of places named after people to be on the safe side? Just use a number instead or a combination of a number and an innocuous name. (Or should "Orange County" be problematic because Orange man bad?)

e.g. Washington State -> Olympic state; Washington, D.C. -> Capital, D.C.; San Francisco -> Golden Gate City, Louisiana -> Dead French King state... and so on.

This is not a bad idea, but your alternative names are still problematic.  The word "olympic" recalls Ancient Greece.  That is, it recalls old, dead white people.  It must go.  Clearly, "Washington" must go, but DC is actually much, much worse.  It derives from Columbus, the most sinister genocidal maniac in all of human history.  His name cannot be expunged from history quickly enough or thoroughly enough.  Gates are meant to exclude, so that word cannot be used.  And surely, the use of the word "king" is problematic, as is reference to France, another enclave of white people.  Letters and numbers are the way to go.  Maybe something like THX 1138.