USA Politics

[SimonNZ]

No, it wasn't from that bugaboo "source" of yours, Simon, but the Hadith:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/4/100

I don't believe you're getting this bigotry from your own close reading of the sacred texts of Islam.

And how many of the three and a half million Muslim Americans do you think are doing this? How many anywhere?

Put down the alt-right propaganda and pick up a thick book, or better yet go talk to some actual Muslims. Seriously: head to the nearest mosque and run some of this past them.

And do you also judge Christians by all the crazy laws in the Bible that absolutely no one is following? Google "crazy bible verses".

[drogulus]

Well, history tells us they did so.....

     So, it must have been their idea to stop being bloodthirsty beasts to each other and anyone else without the power to resist them. After a thousand years they made themselves good by their own efforts which had mysteriously not worked for all that time? That's it, they changed their minds.

Here we go again. Mentioning acts from 500-1000 years ago to make Christianity look as bad as possible today. From your perspective, nothing has really changed with the religion, its adherents would still burn people at the stake or launch crusades, have an inquisition or whatever (as if only these events define it).

      I'm not saying that at all. Religion has been changed very much by it's acceptance of humanism and self government, and proponents have occasionally tried to claim it was their idea!

      Religion has been civilized in part by internal processes. The beast has been tamed, but it still has claws.

[drogulus]

Should there be perpetual riots and looting in cities? Answer me that, Maestro.

     What could cause rioting to be prolonged? Heavy handed crackdowns might do it, though I doubt Trump has the focus and determination to keep them going to November. He'll move on to something else.

   

[steve ridgway]

You're just making things up to suit the "muslims kill people, white christians don't" story  -  against overwhelming evidence.

I'm not suggesting that at all but thanks for reminding me why I kept away from people at work and avoided conversation. I guess I'm cancelled .

[Herman]

I'm not suggesting that at all but thanks for reminding me why I kept away from people at work and avoided conversation. I guess I'm cancelled .

And how would I (or anybody else) "cancel" you here?

All I did was disagree with you.

[steve ridgway]

And how would I (or anybody else) "cancel" you here?

All I did was disagree with you.

Religion, race, sexuality, gender etc. are not safe topics, it's too easy to be accused of hate crime.

[Herman]

Maybe in real life, especially if you're in a position of power, but not here.

[milk]

Well, history tells us they did so.....
Here we go again. Mentioning acts from 500-1000 years ago to make Christianity look as bad as possible today. From your perspective, nothing has really changed with the religion, its adherents would still burn people at the stake or launch crusades, have an inquisition or whatever (as if only these events define it). I'm not saying the history is spotless or without criticism but my original point was that Christianity is the only religion where its critics can analyze and point out all the flaws meanwhile you do the same with Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any others and you're branded a this, that and the other. Really, you are a perfect example of that kind of behavior, Drog.
So what made them adopt secular democracies? They certainly weren't forced down on them, being the bulk of the population when said governments were created. Can you give a little credit where credit is due?

Judaism has a tradition of argument and struggle with god. I'm not a believer but I did study it years ago. When you compare Talmudic interpretations of the Torah with someone like Luther, you see a much harder line of obedience in the latter. I'm not saying that settles the matter as this is a complicated question with no one answer.

[milk]

LOL. Can't show the base how senile ol' Joe is. The lengths to hide him are comical and camouflaging it with a disgruntled former Republican makes it funnier.

For his defection, Biden should make Kasich ambassador to the people's Republic of Crapistan. It's the post he deserves most.

I'd have to read this whole thing but I don't think "on behalf" means "instead of" in this context.

[Jo498]

But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)

[Todd]

Maybe in real life, especially if you're in a position of power, but not here.

It looks like this forum is woefully lacking in knowledge of what hate crimes are and who gets prosecuted for them.

[drogulus]

But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)

     Europe conquered it's religions and developed alternative political formations. The story is complicated because modern apologists wish to claim the religions conquered themselves and by their own efforts sparked the rediscovery of classical civilization, and weak versions of the claim have truth in it.

     I'm a little taken aback by apologists who have intense dislike for secular humanism and its political structures yet also wish to take credit for its founding institutions.

[milk]

But Luther and the other reformators meant a huge step in both individual freedoms and further separation of church and state. We have been through this several times. Historically, there was exactly one culture in the history of mankind that developed modern science, modern separation of church and state and the powers within a state, individual rights and freedoms in the modern sense, women's rights, abolition of slavery and similar indentured service (except for wage slavery which is still around). This culture was (western catholic) Christian Europe. Neither imperial Rome nor imperial China nor the caliphate of Bagdad nor Mogul India nor the Ottoman Empire developed any of this, even less all of it. So either modernity fell from heaven like the Quran or it was brought forth by 1000 years of christianity.
Sure, some of these things (mostly superior naval and weapons tech) also gave Western European cultures the power to conquer or otherwise dominate most of the rest of the world in the last 500 years and very few people would deny that this was an abuse of power and often quite atrocious. (Although the atrocities by some of the other powers named above were not much less and if so probably mostly because for lack of opportunity.) And it was also the only culture who gave up at least a bit of that power through emancipation of formerly underprivileged and release of colonies etc. This does not mean that everything is (much less was) fair and just. But again, the West is basically the only culture that to some extent sharply condemns these past atrocities. In Germany it is legally forbidden to deny that the holocaust happened and every year there are speeches to confirm the bad conscience the grandchildren of the Nazi collaborators should have. In Turkey one will get into legal trouble if one calls the genocide against the Armenians genocide. I am not picking on Turkey, that's actually the historically normal thing to. (At least Turkey is discreet about it, Ramesses, Assurbanipal or Caesar would have erected monuments celebrating successful genocides.)

This is too rambling for me. I'm not sure what you're getting at when it comes to the holocaust or the Armenian genocide or how it's related. I also don't know what "exactly one culture" is. I assume if it's Christianity then it starts with Jews like Jesus. But anyway, I have a hard time buying this type of argument because there are so many assumptions and it seems over-simplistic and tendentious. There were great Islamic scientists and mathematicians, as far as I understand. I do think liberalism and humanism are the most important values and have probably lifted up the most people. I'm not arguing against "western culture." I just think you seem to start with a political point and that saying all this springs from Christianity is too reductive. Have you read "Guns Germs and Steel" by the way? Does anyone around here like this book?

[milk]

     Europe conquered it's religions and developed alternative political formations. The story is complicated because modern apologists wish to claim the religions conquered themselves and by their own efforts sparked the rediscovery of classical civilization, and weak versions of the claim have truth in it.

     I'm a little taken aback by apologists who have intense dislike for secular humanism and its political structures yet also wish to take credit for its founding institutions.

right. I have a hard time getting myself to believe this. Things do not happen simply. The course of history can be viewed so many ways. This seems like a very "modern" view of history.

[BasilValentine]

In Beijing. 

The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.

As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.

[Karl Henning]

LOL. Can't show the base how senile ol' Joe is. The lengths to hide him are comical and camouflaging it with a disgruntled former Republican makes it funnier.

For his defection, Biden should make Kasich ambassador to the people's Republic of Crapistan. It's the post he deserves most. 

LOL, troll.

[drogulus]

The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.

As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.

     In this the Catholics are not behaving differently from other sects. There are plenty of examples from Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims.

     Though religion has personal aspects not easily seen as political, for the most part religion is politics. Religious authorities want as much political sway as they can get, and will use any means to chip away at secular law and concepts of universal rights that limit their authority over people who don't have truth on their side. It's in the news almost every day, all over the world. One could easily conclude that politics is as much religion as religion is politics. The common opponent is the secular state that stops them from tearing each other to pieces.

[greg]

The joke clearly went over your head. Antifa isn't actually an organization one can sign up for. It doesn't have an institutional existence. You are the kind of citizen the Trump administration is performing for when it cites imaginary terrorist organizations as a justification for employing secret police in American cities: The massively, willfully ignorant.

As for organized Christianity: Throughout its existence the Catholic Church has always wielded as much temporal power, backed by violence, as it could get away with. Always — even if it's reduced to filling unmarked graves at Irish convents and sucking up to fascists.

"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.


If they do any organizing it could be ways like this:
https://www.facebook.com/antifaintl/

20,000 followers... so that's probably how you would sign up and coordinate for group activities.

[Karl Henning]

     In this the Catholics are not behaving differently from other sects. There are plenty of examples from Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and Muslims.

     Though religion has personal aspects not easily seen as political, for the most part religion is politics. Religious authorities want as much political sway as they can get, and will use any means to chip away at secular law and concepts of universal rights that limit their authority over people who don't have truth on their side. It's in the news almost every day, all over the world. One could easily conclude that politics is as much religion as religion is politics. Their common opponent is the secular state that stops them from tearing each other to pieces.

Where religion is not philosophical (a question of the adherent moderating his own behavior and character) It is indeed likely to be about controlling people (inherent perhaps in the very phrase "religious authority")

Why, there are participants in this conversation who exemplify this.

[Herman]

"Not tightly organized" is far from "imaginary." I suppose the website I linked was also imaginary. They also have a flag which isn't imaginary. I have heard they have "leaders" but I would imagine at this point it's just small groups, and they aren't going to advertise themselves openly so often.

"I have heard..."

Congrats, perfect Trump-speak!