USA Politics

Started by Que, June 09, 2020, 10:18:46 AM

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greg

Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 09:40:02 AM
Sure, and people can always educate themselves and actually know something. Ignorance shouldn't be celebrated. It's not like we live in a World where only kings and priests have books and access to information.
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?

Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.

And those people might looks towards books as sources of information about how the world began for their particular religion.... so... I'd just think of it as different categories of books, speculation books, fiction, and manuals. The only real education is manuals. Speculation books have value, since they may be true, but shouldn't be taken so ultra-seriously that it shapes your identity and makes you talk bad about others, saying they are ignorant or whatever, when those books could very well also be wrong.
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drogulus

Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?

Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.

And those people might looks towards books as sources of information about how the world began for their particular religion.... so... I'd just think of it as different categories of books, speculation books, fiction, and manuals. The only real education is manuals. Speculation books have value, since they may be true, but shouldn't be taken so ultra-seriously that it shapes your identity and makes you talk bad about others, saying they are ignorant or whatever, when those books could very well also be wrong.

     Science can discover new knowledge because it can be wrong. How this can work has been described by Quine (web of belief) and by the Peirce-ian epistemologist Susan Haack who came up with the ugly term "foundherantism". Science uses a pencil, not a pen.
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greg

Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:08:42 AM
Science uses a pencil, not a pen.
As it should. And should be kept in mind that it's just a sketch until it goes through the inking phase to complete the artwork. But people have egos...
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

71 dB

Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 09:56:58 AM
A nit here, but his lying to the public about COVID-19 didn't cause close to 200,000 deaths, it caused whatever the delta is between close to 200,000 deaths, and the number that would have happened anyway. That number is probably impossible to calculate or even estimate, but there it is. Still an inexcusable and imo self-serving act, regardless of the excuse he gave for it. Didn't want to cause a panic? Yeah, right. Didn't want to cause an ECONOMIC panic that would cost him the election, more likely.

"They would have died anyway. They had other illnesses" is a bit Trumpian excuse. Yes, some of them certainly would have died without Covid-19, but we can compare the epidemic and corona deaths and we see correlation. However, even with competent leadership Covid-19 would have killed a lot of Americans, unfortunately. It is a nasty virus! Finland has had relatively competent government and we have now 339 corona deaths in population of 5.5 million. Scaled to the population of the US that's about 20,000. Some countries have even lower deathrates than Finland, some "competent countries have a bit more. Some countries have it easier (sparse population, isolation etc.) I'd say with competent leadership the death toll in the US would be about 50,000 at the moment. Of course, every single covid death in every country is a sad thing.

Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 09:56:58 AMI want someone who respects truth and takes the job of POTUS seriously. Biden? Not my first choice, but better than what we have.

Yes, Biden is definitely "better". Whether he is "good" is another thing. He just talked about increasing the military budget. Anyone here for that? No?
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drogulus

#2784
Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 11:14:03 AM
As it should. And should be kept in mind that it's just a sketch until it goes through the inking phase to complete the artwork. But people have egos...

     There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.

     I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.

     
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71 dB

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 10:18:01 AM
That's one of Trump's stock accusations against MSM

Oh, YES! So true! Bunkerboy can't take any criticism...

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2020, 10:18:01 AMOur various beliefs are no "threat" to one another, nor is the difference in opinion any obstacle to friendship.

It depends on what the consequencies of the differencies in opinion are. If the consequencies are harmless then yes, no "threat" to one another.
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greg

Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
     There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.
Not an inking phase for all of science, but for small parts of it, yes.

Before the actual images of a black hole were taken, we just had sketches. Actually getting a photo of it is the inking. And seeing someone get sucked into it would be the coloring.  :P
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

Karl Henning

Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
     There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.

     I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.

     

A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shops of Isher
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
But you were talking about believing in things that there is no first-hand information about, right?

No proof. You can have evidence for something, but not the proof. Forensics may have evidence indicating the murder was done by person X, but still there is not proof of that and while it's rational to believe person X did it, the court may not be able to send the X to prison and X is released of charges. Similarly for example scientists may have strong evidence for big bang, but not 100 % proof of it.

Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AMSince we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation. But then people turn the speculation into their group identity and eventually it leads to wars. They are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know," they have to fill the void and insecurities in their soul with this stuff.

If you find one of your shoe bitten, you don't have 100 % proof of whether it was your friend or your dog, but it's pretty logical to think it was your dog. It's beyond speculation. Why? Because your dog biting our shoe makes much more sense.



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71 dB

Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 11:52:34 AM
Not an inking phase for all of science, but for small parts of it, yes.

Before the actual images of a black hole were taken, we just had sketches. Actually getting a photo of it is the inking. And seeing someone get sucked into it would be the coloring.  :P

Science has been confirming predictions of mr. Einstein made ~100 years ago. Scientific mind can be quite mighty at it's best.
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JBS

Quote from: drogulus on September 16, 2020, 11:45:51 AM
     There is no inking phase. We won't run out of science or the discovery of error until the last discoverer is dead.

     I once read a novel about an interplanetary civilization after science died. They had knowledge of space travel and atomic weapons kept by a priesthood. Oddly, it's said the plot was derived from I, Claudius by Robert Graves.

     

Gladiator was a near plagiarism of I Claudius.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

BasilValentine

Quote from: greg on September 16, 2020, 10:33:03 AM

Since we have no information on how the universe began, there is only speculation.

I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 12:05:36 PM
If you find one of your shoe bitten, you don't have 100 % proof of whether it was your friend or your dog, but it's pretty logical to think it was your dog. It's beyond speculation. Why? Because your dog biting our shoe makes much more sense.
Sure, it's logical, and the most likely conclusion.

But what I object to is this thought process which sometimes feeds people's egos, which leads to a "you don't believe, how ignorant" attitude. I think you can only realize the most likely possibilities and be on board with that, and just leave it at that. Any extra enthusiasm about it is undeserved.

Things that aren't observed first-hand can always be something that you hadn't considered. If the shoes were left outside by the door, it could have been someone else's dog. Or even some entirely different animal (at my old house years ago we had on separate occasions a turtle and a ferret trying to get inside our front door, and we kept the ferret for a day and played with it).

If the shoes were left inside, then it could be a rat. There's always something that one hasn't considered.




Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.
It's probably all a simulation, but meh, I don't care what others believe.
Wagie wagie get back in the cagie

krummholz

Quote from: 71 dB on September 16, 2020, 11:36:34 AM
"They would have died anyway. They had other illnesses" is a bit Trumpian excuse. Yes, some of them certainly would have died without Covid-19, but we can compare the epidemic and corona deaths and we see correlation.

Oooh, I think you missed my point! Not that they would have died anyway WITHOUT covid, but that they would have died anyway FROM covid if Trump had not lied about the seriousness of the threat. There's a great editorial in AAAS Science Magazine about Trump's lies re: COVID-19. Since it's about the pandemic, I don't think it's paywalled.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/09/11/science.abe7391?fbclid=IwAR0spUaiRAbVuCVqog7JPhqQwjDCQz9J6Itspz2j1N0mM95NNUoUETuzRKg

Quote
Yes, Biden is definitely "better". Whether he is "good" is another thing. He just talked about increasing the military budget. Anyone here for that? No?

I'm not sure whether the budget needs increasing, but we certainly need a president who knows how to be a leader of a major power, and sometimes that means calling out the military. I think Biden will do fine in that regard with all his experience in government, and especially as VP. I am more concerned about his age and the very real possibility that he will not last 4 full years. Harris is good too, especially compared with Trump, but she does not have his experience in foreign affairs and will be facing a VERY steep learning curve.

krummholz

Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.

Depends on how you define "the Universe". The Universe as we know it is certainly expanding in such a way that you can extrapolate back and say that at one time it MIGHT have been very small, with all the matter and energy currently in existence concentrated in a "primeval atom" (selon Fr. Lemaitre). That theory makes a prediction: the Cosmic Microwave Background, which has been detected and studied very closely.

We can't say anything about what happened before the Big Bang. But we are confident that it happened, and if you define the Universe as everything that the Big Bang evolved into, then the Universe had a beginning.

It's not as circular as it sounds. ;)

drogulus

Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.

     I agree. Just because things that are part of the whole can be said to have beginnings doesn't mean the whole has one. Or, is the North Pole on the edge of something because there is nothing north of it?  Maybe we need a context, like "In the beginning there was the Bird, and the Bird is the Word", or something like that.
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drogulus

Quote from: krummholz on September 16, 2020, 01:13:49 PM


We can't say anything about what happened before the Big Bang. But we are confident that it happened, and if you define the Universe as everything that the Big Bang evolved into, then the Universe had a beginning.



     I think you could say the Big Bang began the process we can now observe, but I don't think you can say with equal confidence that there was a "before" which was also a "nothing".
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71 dB

Quote from: BasilValentine on September 16, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
I'm not aware of any conclusive evidence that the universe had a beginning. It seems an odd assumption.

This conclusion comes from the fact that the universe is expanding based on observations and if something is expanding it must have been a "point" which is here called "beginning" at some point in the past, approximately 13.7 billion years ago.
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JBS

It's  better to say the Big Bang is the point beyond which our knowledge will never go.  There are theories that a universe collapsed into the "primeval atom" and that the expansion we call the Big Bang was merely the point where the prior collapse reached maximum density and then exploded outward. Those theories often predict that the current universe will reach a point of maximum expansion and then collapse back into itself until we reach the point where a new Big Bang occurs and we start the whole thing all over again.

There is another point to make: what we call time itself is a property of the universe and started with the Big Bang like the rest of the universe. So technically there was nothing before the Big Bang. 

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on September 16, 2020, 03:40:58 PM
It's  better to say the Big Bang is the point beyond which our knowledge will never go.  There are theories that a universe collapsed into the "primeval atom" and that the expansion we call the Big Bang So technically there was nothing before the Big Bang. 

     I don't see how nothing can be before time, but then I don't think nothing can be, period. The problem is we are trying to use language designed for at least possible imaginable experience and stretching beyond its useful range. One possibility is to consider a no boundary Universe.

"Asking what came before the Big Bang is meaningless, according to the no-boundary proposal, because there is no notion of time available to refer to," Hawking said in another lecture at the Pontifical Academy in 2016, a year and a half before his death. "It would be like asking what lies south of the South Pole."
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