USA Politics

Started by Que, June 09, 2020, 10:18:46 AM

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JBS

Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.

My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.
I'm curious to know why you think Obama was a greater hawk than Putin. He was more hawkish than Trump is, but probably less hawkish than any of his four immediate predecessors (Reagan through Bush fils)

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Florestan

Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 12:10:16 PM
I'm curious to know why you think Obama was a greater hawk than Putin.

Obama



Here are the facts:

    Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan, adding tens of thousands of troops at a cost of many billions of dollars.

    He committed American forces to a war in Libya, though he had neither approval from Congress nor reason to think events there threatened national security.

    He ordered 250 drone strikes that killed at least 1,400 people in Pakistan.

    He ordered the raid into Pakistan that killed Osama bin Laden.

    He ordered the killings of multiple American citizens living abroad.

    He expanded the definition of the War on Terrorism and asserted his worldwide power to indefinitely detain anyone he deems a terrorist.

    He expanded drone attacks into Somalia.

    He ordered a raid on pirates in Somalia.

    He deployed military squads to fight the drug war throughout Latin America.

    He expanded the drone war in Yemen, going so far as to give the CIA permission to kill people even when it doesn't know their identities so long as they're suspected of ties to terrorism.

    He's implied that he'd go to war with Iran rather than permitting them to get nuclear weapons.

In summary, President Obama escalated a major war and sent tens of thousands more troops to fight it, even as he joined in regime change in a different country, ordered drone strikes in at least three others, and sent commandos into Pakistan, a list of aggressive actions that isn't even exhaustive.



Thats is, 11 counts.

Putin

- made war to Georgia

- annexed Crimea

- foment civil unrest in Ukraine

That is, 3 counts.

Trump

- ordered the killing of an Iranian top officer.

That is, 1 count.



Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

SimonNZ

Justifiable and unjustifiable actions count equally when tallying the points and considering the aggressiveness of these people, do they?

JBS

The simplest reply to that is
Obama continued a war started by his predecessors. Putin started wars.
You did btw leave out Putin's involvement in Syria, which Obama's decision not to get involved there cleared the way for.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.

My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.

T was least friendly/sympathetic president to the allies and developed nations.

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: drogulus on October 21, 2020, 08:02:27 AM
     Voters in Two States Report Threatening 'Vote for Trump' Emails

"We are in possession of all your information You are currently registered as a Democrat and we know this because we have gained access into the entire voting infrastructure. You will vote for Trump on Election Day or we will come after you. Change your party affiliation to Republican to let us know you received our message and will comply. We will know which candidate you voted for. I would take this seriously if I were you."

     The source of the email was a server in Estonia.

In the email that The Times reviewed, metadata shows that the original email came from vhost43553f0@avalik.koolibri.ee, an Estonian mail server hosted on ElkData.ee, one of the country's domain hosting services.

     If I got an email like this I would "view raw message" to see what that reveals. I might have seen the ".ee" or just looked up the originating IP address.
I heard a story today about a 20-year-old in Florida who received this and was truly scared and freaked out.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

drogulus


     
Quote from: JBS on October 21, 2020, 01:35:41 PM

You did btw leave out Putin's involvement in Syria, which Obama's decision not to get involved there cleared the way for.

     Trump's position on Iran is war in Yemen but no war in Syria. Also he has a Saudi friend, a Russian friend and a Turkish friend.

     Trump's position on Ukraine involves less triangulation. He supports Putin and opposes Biden.
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BasilValentine

Quote from: Florestan on October 21, 2020, 11:58:28 AM
With respect to foreign policy Trump seemed to me the most paciifist POTUS since Jimmy Carter.

My opinion is that with respect to hawkishness Obama > Putin > Trump.

Yawn. Given that the three chief executives have/had entirely different motivations and interests in pursuing foreign policy goals, hawkishness is a vapid, intellectually lazy catch all. I'm wondering what you even mean by hawkish? If you mean naked aggression on foreign soil, including invading countries and annexing territory, then you're obviously in error in your ranking.


drogulus

     

"This data can be used by foreign actors to attempt to communicate false information to registered voters that they hope will cause confusion, sow chaos, and undermine your confidence in American democracy," Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe said in a surprise news conference Wednesday evening.

     

     
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Karl Henning

The party of voter suppression doesn't mind.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

drogulus


NSA intelligence led to last month's takedown by Facebook and Twitter of a Russian operation called Peace Data, which recruited U.S. journalists to write articles intended to undermine support for Biden and his running mate, Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.). In October, an FBI investigation led to the neutralizing of another Russian operation — this one targeting conservative voters — on three mainstream platforms.

     

     
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Florestan

Quote from: BasilValentine on October 21, 2020, 02:53:43 PM
I'm wondering what you even mean by hawkish?

Willingness to use military force or other violent actions in order to achieve a country's foreign policy goals or to protect their economic, strategic or geopolitical interests.

Now, if we refer to statements and declarations, Putin is the most bellicose leader in the world save Kim Jong-Un. When it comes to actual use of military force and violent actions, his are less numerous than Obama's. And compared to both Obama and Putin, Trump is a schoolyard boy.

Look, I'm not saying Putin is a good guy (he isn't) but I'd like to know why USA's militarily protecting their foreign interests in defiance of international law is legitimate or at least justifiable and Russia's doing the same isn't.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

#4112
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on October 21, 2020, 01:52:29 PM
T was least friendly/sympathetic president to the allies and developed nations.

Excellent. 


Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 12:43:00 AMWillingness to use military force or other violent actions in order to achieve a country's foreign policy goals or to protect their economic, strategic or geopolitical interests.

It is important to distinguish between rhetoric and war.  Someone characterized Reagan as quite hawkish previously in this thread, yet Reagan invaded Grenada and approved various covert acts, none as consequential as Carter's Afghanistan policy.  Using Haass' framework, Reagan was an arch-maximalist in rhetoric, but a minimalist in action.  He spoke loudly and carried a big stick, but he didn't really use it.  Trump is a minimalist.  Obama was a minimalist compared to Bush II, though more warlike and prone to war and war crimes than Trump - eg, his vast, unaccountable expansion of assassination by UAV, and the destruction of Libya. 

Some items on your list of charges against Obama don't differentiate between rhetoric and action, and fail to take account of international agreement.  For instance, threatening to go to war with Iran is standard fare, and everyone knew Obama would not actually do it, just like Trump will not, nor will Biden.  Also, use of force against piracy in the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea was part of an international effort that involved multiple great powers, and fighting piracy is fairly mundane in the area of foreign policy.  Putin's actions in the Caucasus and Ukraine have represented a formal breach with long-standing norms, most importantly the seizure and annexation of land.  Putin's rhetoric and asymmetric activities show him to be fairly hawkish and quite willing to engage in standard violent or otherwise unpleasant policy actions to further Russian actions.  He is not especially hawkish in action given Russian limitations.  This century, the most violent and warlike great power has been the US, no question about it.  Every president since at least Eisenhower has committed war crimes under either the Geneva Conventions or the rules established at Nuremberg, but many Americans still need to rely on a fantasy that Americans are good guys and various foreigners are bad guys, with Russia the baddest of the bad.  Eventually, China will take that away from Russia, but not this election cycle.  Seems unlikely for the 2024 cycle, but it depends on what Chinese plans are regarding Taiwan.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

Democrats Plan To Boycott Senate Committee Vote On Barrett Nomination

As an Oregonian, I would like some clarity on why in this instance Democrats are acting in a constructive, principled manner and are good, and why Oregon state Republicans, when they walked out of legislative sessions, are unprincipled and bad.  If I did not know any better, it appears that Dems are being their hypocritical selves.  To be clear, Republicans are hypocritical.  Both sides are hypocritical.  Ah, see that?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 04:42:59 AM
Some items on your list of charges against Obama

Not my list. I copypasted it from The Atlantic. That being said, there's nothing in your post that I disagree with.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on October 22, 2020, 04:47:51 AM
Democrats Plan To Boycott Senate Committee Vote On Barrett Nomination

As an Oregonian, I would like some clarity on why in this instance Democrats are acting in a constructive, principled manner and are good, and why Oregon state Republicans, when they walked out of legislative sessions, are unprincipled and bad.  If I did not know any better, it appears that Dems are being their hypocritical selves.  To be clear, Republicans are hypocritical.  Both sides are hypocritical.  Ah, see that?

This is bothsiderism, right?  :D
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 05:16:56 AMI copypasted it from The Atlantic.

Got it.  That explains the mediocrity.


Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2020, 05:18:02 AM
This is bothsiderism, right?  :D

When pseudo-intellectuals use the phrase or one of its derivatives, they really mean that Democrats are morally good and intellectually honest, and that when Dems engage in a specific action or use a specific argument, it is wholesome and right.  When dastardly Republicans do it, it is vile and wrong and dishonest.  You will see said pseudo-intellectuals attempt to use logicians' phrases like "false equivalence" or "moral equivalence", or whatnot.

Now, in the comparison I raised, Amy Coney Barrett is very clearly a bad person, bordering on Hitlerian evil.  She does not agree with Roe, for instance.  That necessarily, automatically, and permanently renders her entirely unsuitable to sit on SCOTUS.  Therefore, given her Hitlerian evil, Democrats are taking the bold step of boycotting the Judiciary Committee vote.  It is an ineffectual, impotent gesture.

Oregon state Republicans, on the other hand, opposed righteous and good and wholesome legislation regarding an emissions cap and trade scheme*  presented by the near super-majority Democrats.  That prevented a quorum, which killed the bill.  Republicans were effective.  Actually, you see, that points out the difference: Democrats are incompetent and flail helplessly while Republicans, even when in minority status, thwart Dems.  Republicans are bad because they succeed.



* State level cap and trade legislation is hokum on many levels.  Every economist, of every political persuasion, will tell you that a carbon tax is far more efficient and effective at dealing with emissions.  Telling people you want to impose a massive new tax is political poison, though, so hokum prevails. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Karl Henning

"Trump is trailing, according to FiveThirtyEight's averages, by about 3.5 points in both Arizona and Florida and three points in North Carolina. He cannot afford to lose any of them. He is also in a statistical tie with Biden in Ohio, Texas, Iowa and Georgia. (Imagine if a Democrat were tied in Maryland, Connecticut, New Jersey and Vermont while trailing in Nevada, Colorado and New Hampshire.)

Such an extensive election map lead with a huge money advantage is every campaign operative's dream. (Biden started October with $177 million on hand, compared with $63 million for Trump.) Trump, on the other hand, has too many holes in the dike, with too little time and too few resources to plug them. Moreover, he has no compelling reason to change voters' minds. He wastes time hollering about indecipherable conspiracy plots; whining that CBS's Lesley Stahl was mean to him; joining supporters in a "lock her up" chant against popular Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D); and trying to minimize a pandemic that has killed more than 220,000 Americans."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Remember the joke in Spaceballs about 12345 as a password?

"Dutch security researcher succeeded in logging into the Twitter account of the American President Donald Trump [who] had an extremely weak and easy to guess password ["maga2020!"] and had, according to the researcher, not applied two-step verification."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Herman

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2020, 06:13:30 AM
whining that CBS's Lesley Stahl was mean to him; joining supporters in a "lock her up" chant against popular Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D)

I believe tonight's debate is again moderated by a woman?

There are not enough sedatives in the USA for Trump not to have yet another peeve episode...