A Thread for the Discussion of Schoenberg's Music

[Mahlerian]

Because I consider Arnold Schoenberg's music one of the pillars of the 20th century canon, I find it frustrating that discussions putatively relating to him generally either fall into discussions of "atonality," the 12-tone method, or, nearly as irrelevantly, his sometimes bizarre and contradictory views on politics and society. I want to start a thread for discussions of the music alone.

Recently, I was playing through the second of the Op. 11 pieces, and it struck me that so many of the gestures, from the oscillating minor third at the beginning to the ascending chords, are so simple, and their treatment is likewise very straightforward. What makes it so expressive is the way in which an idea like that opening ostinato interacts with other contrasting elements, such as the more rhythmically free melody that enters above it.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Ua9mAvivM-o

Here's my outline of the A section:

0:00-0:21 Ostinato, free melody
0:21-0:27 Ascending chordal idea (only a hint) with an answering descending idea
0:28-0:59 Ostinato and melody return, in interplay with the "answering" idea
1:00-1:20 Ascending chords, fully developed out
1:21-1:37 Melody, then ostinato

After that, the motifs and gestures from the above are developed and extended. Nearly everything, even the shattering climax, is based on these simple gestures. I find it a delicately-wrought and psychologically intricate masterpiece.

Any thoughts or comments? I don't expect everyone to take such an analytical approach.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Because I consider Arnold Schoenberg's music one of the pillars of the 20th century canon, I find it frustrating that discussions putatively relating to him generally either fall into discussions of "atonality," the 12-tone method, or, nearly as irrelevantly, his sometimes bizarre and contradictory views on politics and society. I want to start a thread for discussions of the music alone.

Doesn't this count?

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,224.0.html

[Mahlerian]

Doesn't this count?

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,224.0.html

The composer guestbook thread is more general. I am hoping to turn this into a more specific discussion on music, without launching into peripheral issues and topics.

[some guy]

A friend and I were recently talking about music and reactions to music, using the shorthand terms "warm" and "cold."

Schoenberg, as you might expect, was fairly far over on the warm end of the scale. Brahmsian warm.

(Another similarity between Brahms and Schoenberg--both were accused at first of being cold.)

((Birtwistle and Boulez also came in very far over on the warm side, just by the way.))

[Mahlerian]

A friend and I were recently talking about music and reactions to music, using the shorthand terms "warm" and "cold."

Schoenberg, as you might expect, was fairly far over on the warm end of the scale. Brahmsian warm.

(Another similarity between Brahms and Schoenberg--both were accused at first of being cold.)

((Birtwistle and Boulez also came in very far over on the warm side, just by the way.))

Sounds like an interesting discussion. Which composers came in on the cool side?

[vandermolen]

Well, I enjoyed the Op.11 and your musical analysis of the opening.
I find Schoenberg's paintings to be of interest as well:

[Karl Henning]

Cool thread!

[some guy]

Sounds like an interesting discussion. Which composers came in on the cool side?

We didn't cover that aspect. The conversation was about composers who were at first considered to be "cold" but who have come to be seen as "warm." And about composers who are warm, to us, but considered cold by some listeners.

I can't know for sure, but I suspect that if the conversation had continued, we would have questioned the utility of describing an intrinsically hot art form in any other way than warm. Before we got to that point, the dinner bell sounded.

[Karl Henning]

And you didn't wait for dinner to grow cold.

[Mandryka]

I can't know for sure, but I suspect that if the conversation had continued, we would have questioned the utility of describing an intrinsically hot art form in any other way than warm.

What! But this is objectively hot

https://www.youtube.com/v/7TBrh259zig

[DaveF]

I find Schoenberg's paintings to be of interest as well:

Schoenberg was such a visionary he was able to paint a portrait of Andy Warhol years before the latter was even born.

[Mandryka]

I listened to op 11/2, not the Chen but Katharina Wolpe. She articulates it in a very interesting way, the music is full of metrical breaks like caesurae, this gives it the feeling of a toccata by Frescobaldi. This is the recording, which I can easily let you have.




It's good to listen to this music again, and do so attentively. So thanks for starting the thread.

[some guy]

And you didn't wait for dinner to grow cold.

ExACTly!!

[Mandryka]

Schoenberg/Busoni op 11/2

https://www.youtube.com/v/_CYjPCxP6j0


Two of Schoenberg's letters to Busoni here. I would like to read Busoni's to Schoenberg, but I can't find them,

http://www.csun.edu/~liviu7/603/Chapter%204-Schoenberg.pdf

[Jo498]

Schoenberg was such a visionary he was able to paint a portrait of Andy Warhol years before the latter was even born.

Seems like the love child of Warhol and that creature depicted on Munch's "The scream".

[vandermolen]

Schoenberg was such a visionary he was able to paint a portrait of Andy Warhol years before the latter was even born.

Hehe 

[vandermolen]

Seems like the love child of Warhol and that creature depicted on Munch's "The scream".

Very true.

[Mahlerian]

I listened to op 11/2, not the Chen but Katharina Wolpe. She articulates it in a very interesting way, the music is full of metrical breaks like caesurae, this gives it the feeling of a toccata by Frescobaldi. This is the recording, which I can easily let you have.




It's good to listen to this music again, and do so attentively. So thanks for starting the thread.

Is she related to the composer Stefan Wolpe? I've heard some criticism of Schoenberg's "unpianistic" writing for keyboard, which is probably a result of the fact that he wasn't a pianist to any real degree, but I can't imagine something like Op. 11 being successfully arranged for any other instruments. It seems like that recording is on the Naxos Music Library but isn't available in my territory, so I haven't been able to hear it yet.

[Mahlerian]

Well, I enjoyed the Op.11 and your musical analysis of the opening.

Thanks!

[T. D.]

Is she related to the composer Stefan Wolpe? ...

Daughter, deceased 2013.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/feb/22/katharina-wolpe