Recordings you like in spite of poor/subpar performance

Started by Dry Brett Kavanaugh, August 04, 2020, 08:32:56 AM

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Jo498

I don't know the story behind Scherchen in the fifties. It was a very different time and he apparently was an irascible womanizing communist, so he maybe had to be happy with conducting second rate orchestras without sufficient rehearsal time for cheap Westminster LPs.
The Southwest German Radio orchestra was a) very good, the level of all German Radio orchestras in the 80s (or now) was much higher than what Scherchen had in the 50s  (and the Frankfurt Opera orchestra was pretty good as well) and b) something of a specialist ensemble for contempory music already with Rosbaud and Bour before Gielen. Discounting  more specialised ensembles like the Ensemble Modern (founded 1980) or the French Ensemble intercontemporain Boulez often conducted, the Southwest German Radio orchestra was probably one of the best for modern/contemporary in the world in the 1970s and 80s (and maybe still today).
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Archaic Torso of Apollo

Quote from: Jo498 on August 06, 2020, 08:38:32 AM
Scherchen is a good candidate (Haydn, Beethoven, Mahler) although for me many of his best recordings are fortunately both decently played and recorded. E.g. the stereo Mahler 2 or Haydn's #45.

Personally I think the playing on the Mahler 2 is pretty scrappy. Also, what is the "Vienna State Opera Orchestra" in this recording? Is it Vienna Philharmonic players under a different name for contractual reasons, or some other ensemble?
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

"Who knows not strict counterpoint, lives and dies an ignoramus" - CPE Bach

Jo498

It's not the Vienna Philharmonic. To my knowledge it is not enitrely clear what the Vienna state opera orchestra on Scherchen's recordings was. I think I have read about two and half suggestions: It was members of the Staatsoper who were not Philharmoniker (they are an elite subset of the orchestra of the Staatsoper), it was the orchestra of the Volksoper, it was some mix/pickup orchestra with members from different Viennese orchestras, namely Staatsoper, Volksoper, Wiener Symphoniker.
One can check the soloists in pieces like Haydn's concertante but this would not mean that all the other musicians hailed from the same orchestra.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

MusicTurner

#23
In the fiery Scherchen vein, also Golovanov, especially his Scriabin. And Mengelberg, but there the flaws are mainly sonical IMHO.

Among pianists not mentioned, names such as Yudina, early Richter live, Nyiregyhazi, and old one-take material such as by Friedman, Hofmann, Rosenthal, Koczalski etc.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
In the fiery Scherchen vein, also Golovanov, especially his Scriabin. And Mengelberg, but there the flaws are mainly sonical IMHO.

Among pianists not mentioned,  names such as Yudina, early Richter live, Nyiregyhazi, and old one-take material such as by Friedman, Hoffman, Rosenthal, Koczalsky etc.

Would you kindly share with us as to why, or how, you like them please?

MusicTurner

#25
They all tend to dare more and represent a different interpretational tradition than the more objective, cool tradition that took off especially from the 60s. Golovanov's Scriabin is the most extreme on record, for example, and the orchestra has difficulties following each other, but it sure tells of the passions in the music. I think this is quite representative for the names I gave, but Mengelberg often had a good sense of how to integrate details in a bigger structure, and likewise for example Koczalski and Rosenthal can have a sense of restrained delicacy as well.

This would have to be a general  outline, since I'm not at home these days & only have my mobile...

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 09:37:56 AM
In the fiery Scherchen vein, also Golovanov, especially his Scriabin. And Mengelberg, but there the flaws are mainly sonical IMHO.

Among pianists not mentioned, names such as Yudina, early Richter live, Nyiregyhazi, and old one-take material such as by Friedman, Hofmann, Rosenthal, Koczalski etc.
Richter's Sofia Live one is sonically hard on the ears, but oh the playing!  His Pictures had my jaw drop open...wow!  Are you referring to live ones before then MT?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Mandryka

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 09:37:56 AM


Among pianists not mentioned . . .  Nyiregyhazi

Oh shut up please.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Brian

I'm listening to a mono Saint-Saens Concerto 2 recording now with Emil Gilels and Andre Cluytens, and there's a moment in the finale where Gilels enters a bar early and plays a few notes before realizing it's not time yet. It made me chuckle. I like that kind of thing...Dizzy Gillespie also does that on a live performance of "Things Ain't What They Used to Be" and the embarrassment is audible as he steps away from the microphone.  ;D

MusicTurner

#29
Quote from: Mandryka on August 06, 2020, 11:22:27 AM
Oh shut up please.

Some of his Liszt is interesting, for those who might not know him. There are live and studio recordings.

Sorry to have provoked you to that degree.

MusicTurner

#30
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 06, 2020, 11:03:18 AM
Richter's Sofia Live one is sonically hard on the ears, but oh the playing!  His Pictures had my jaw drop open...wow!  Are you referring to live ones before then MT?

PD

Yes, the early lives are very uneven as regards his technical precision, the many Beethoven 23rds being probably the best example. I think I've got 3-4 different Pictures by Richter, but I tend to prefer a mono studio melodiya, I think his second (?).

Mandryka

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 11:32:30 AM
Some of his Liszt is interesting, for those who might not know him. There are live and studio recordings.

Sorry to have provoked you to that degree.

Well, I played a bit of Liszt, St Francis doing something, and I thought, per-leaze. This is too much. 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 11:35:27 AM
Yes, the early lives are very uneven as regards his technical precision, the many Beethoven 23rds being probably the best example. I think I've got 3-4 different Pictures by Richter, but I tend to prefer a mono studio melodiya, I think his second (?).
Sounds like you have a number of his recordings?  What are the earliest live ones that you have MT?  And I realize that you're not at home to flip through things.  ;)

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

amw

I can only really speak from the pianistic side but while "musicality" is very often reviewer speak for "can't play the notes", it's a genuine thing in the performances of Schnabel, Cortot, Gieseking, Backhaus, potentially others as well: they don't necessarily hit the notes accurately but they are in touch with the essential character of the music and bring it out, even at the expense of finer details. Obviously it would be nice to have both (and some pianists do) but just the character is good too.

And among modern pianists there are a few examples as well—Charles Rosen and Paul Badura-Skoda are often singled out as not having the level of technical control and evenness necessary but their recordings are still preferable to many others for this focus on character, with Badura-Skoda producing probably the best Beethoven piano sonata cycle on record etc. Martha Argerich also gets criticism, in her case not because of technical incompetence but because of extreme interpretations and tempi, e.g. dispatching the finale of the Chopin 3rd sonata in just over 4 minutes in one recording, but I find those recordings often some of the most valuable because of their extremism. (A similar case could be made for Maurizio Pollini, who I however don't like, or Ernst Levy etc.) Piano students also often get sniffy about Alfred Brendel, András Schiff and Angela Hewitt (and others, eg Kempff), not only for lack of chops but for making their playing too "pretty" and thereby playing to the old ladies etc. I don't agree that that's a vice necessarily.

MusicTurner

#34
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 06, 2020, 12:34:20 PM
Sounds like you have a number of his recordings?  What are the earliest live ones that you have MT?  And I realize that you're not at home to flip through things.  ;)

PD

It's not so that his early style is per definition excessively wild or experimental, his mono Bach concertos for instance can be rather mainstream, and there can be more introvert lyricism in Schumann, Schubert, Beethoven and Chopin, etc.

As regards the earliest recordings, I've got (among other things) the Profil Haenssler CD boxes sold cheaply recently by JPC - Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann+Brahms,  Chopin+Liszt, and a 2CD from Andromeda with Bach, Mussorgsky, and Scriabin, alll with recordings also going back to the late 40s, as far as I remember. They contain both studio and live sessions. The Haenssler boxes are quite illustrative for early Richter, the Andromeda less interesting IMO.

But of course I can't say that I know all that material in depth. And there's no doubt that there are literally several 100s of CDs overall in the preserved Richter legacy. There might be 'Early Richter' series I haven't really noticed (but am actually not planning to get more by him, Btw).

staxomega

Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 05, 2020, 06:38:58 AM
Interesting, and controversial, point. You also mentioned a pianist's fragile performance after the death of his wife. Many fan of Miles Davis, including me,  like his later works with similar sentiment/values. Perhaps late Horowitz similar?

I'm quite a big admirer of Horowitz, and I won't be revisiting those 1980s live recordings to find the so called gems. While he may have played the same piece different every time, the memory lapses (sometimes with ungraceful recoveries) makes it pretty hard to get through them. I'm making my way through and revisiting many parts of "The Great Comeback" box, that is Horowitz in much better form.

vandermolen

This is my favourite performance of Bax's wonderful (IMO) 3rd Symphony. It is invariably poorly reviewed and was never released on CD:
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: MusicTurner on August 06, 2020, 09:47:16 AM
They all tend to dare more and represent a different interpretational tradition than the more objective, cool tradition that took off especially from the 60s. Golocanov's Scriabin is the most extreme on record, for example, and the orchestra has difficulties following each other, but it sure tells of the passions in the music. I think this is quite representative for the names I gave, but Mengelberg often had a good sense of how to integrate details in a bigger structure, and likewise for example Koczalski and Rosenthal can have a sense of restrained delicacy as well.

This would have to be a general  outline, since I'm not at home these days & only have my mobile...

Fascinating. I will look for the Scriabin recording, as well as Richter's early lives. Thank you for your analysis.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Bernstein's Falla recording has a raw character. The performance is overheated, fast and loud sometimes. However, the entire music is dramatic, vivid and penetrating. You can tell the NYP members love the music- or more than that, they become the music while they perform. I like that transcendent moment in the recording.

As for the Granados/Naxos set, the orchestra lacks versatility. So the performance often lacks nuances and power. However, again, you can feel the performers' love of music. You can see that they absolutely know the beauty of the compositions.

MusicTurner

#39
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on August 07, 2020, 06:36:35 AM
Fascinating. I will look for the Scriabin recording, as well as Richter's early lives. Thank you for your analysis.

Thank you, though 'analysis' is a big word and this stuff is controversial, plus people's taste differ, some for example place 'exact 'fidelity' to the notes and/or the score - allegedly monolithic or perhaps not - above everything else, some feel antipathy against a too subjective interpretation, thinking of it as superficial showmanship, etc. But at least it's been mentioned, and personally I like when one's understanding of a work is being widened with obviously new approaches. Then afterwards one can choose what to prefer and think.