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Lisztianwagner

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 01:22:15 PM
I don't think Karajan was a genius at all. I think the term genius should be used sparingly. Wagner a genius? Yes, I think so. Do you honestly think Karajan occupies the same kind of thought Wagner did? I think Bernstein had more know-how and was more versatile than Karajan but I wouldn't even call Bernstein a genius either because he simply wasn't. He was highly intelligent and a knowledgeable musician, but no genius. Let's reserve this word when it can actually be applied correctly.

Of course I don't, but I think it's not right to compare Karajan with Wagner, because they were two different types of musicians: Wagner was composer, conductor, theatre director and polemicist, though mainly famous as a composer; instead Karajan was just a conductor. Karajan was certainly a master in conduting and interpreting works, he was able to extract a marvelous sound from every orchestra he led; from his performances I can really perceive all the expressive power, intesity and emotions the composers conveyed with their music. Don't you think he could be consider a genius for this?

Obviously, it's just an opinion of mine....
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

Mirror Image

#1381
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 05, 2012, 01:42:36 PM
Of course I don't, but I think it's not right to compare Karajan with Wagner, because they were two different types of musicians: Wagner was composer, conductor, theatre director and polemicist, though mainly famous as a composer; instead Karajan was just a conductor. Karajan was certainly a master in conduting and interpreting works, he was able to extract a marvelous sound from every orchestra he led; from his performances I can really perceive all the expressive power, intensity and emotions the composers conveyed with their music. Don't you think he could be consider a genius for this?

Obviously, it's just an opinion of mine....

I don't think it was unusual to compare Wagner and Karajan because of the context in which we're using to discuss them, which, in this particular discussion, you used the word genius to discribe Karajan and I countered that with who I consider to be a real genius.

I usually associate a genius as someone who possesses exceptional creativity and originality. A conductor is certainly an important aspect of classical music, but I don't think they should be labelled as geniuses for the simple fact that they didn't write the music. I simply refer to them as good musicians.

Bogey

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 03:06:30 PM
I don't think it was unusual to compare Wagner and Karajan because of the context in which we're using to discussing them, which, in this particular discussion, you used the word genius to discribe Karajan and I countered that with who I consider to be a real genius.

I usually associate a genius as someone who possess exceptional creativity and originality. A conductor is certainly an important aspect of classical music, but I don't think they should be labelled as geniuses for the simple fact that they didn't write the music. I simply refer to them as good musicians.

I mean this as a completely "discussion" type question.  Where would Bernstein be then? Genius when he composed, and Clark Kent on the podium? :)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Mirror Image

Quote from: Bogey on April 05, 2012, 03:18:40 PM
I mean this as a completely "discussion" type question.  Where would Bernstein be then? Genius when he composed, and Clark Kent on the podium? :)

I think Bernstein was a highly intelligent musician but he was no genius. I don't think his music is particularly noteworthy, but he did compose some good works in his time.

knight66

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 05, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
;D

Jokes aside, Karajan certainly is amazing. I am absolutely loving his Ring Cycle at the moment, extremely passionate and powerfully expressive performances!

So yes, happy birthday, Karajan!

EDIT: I'm sure it's extremely obvious who my avatar is! ;)

Just wait until you get to Gotterdammerung, the best of him and the best of his Ring. I love the ventelated forward sound and a lot of the singing is marvelous.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Lisztianwagner

#1385
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 01:01:44 PM
Booo! :D

By the way, your post reminded me a comment I saw on youtube: I was listening to Bernstein's Beethoven No.9, and as three users voted the video down, someone commented: "Three people must be Karajan's fans".

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 05, 2012, 03:06:30 PM
I don't think it was unusual to compare Wagner and Karajan because of the context in which we're using to discuss them, which, in this particular discussion, you used the word genius to discribe Karajan and I countered that with who I consider to be a real genius.

I usually associate a genius as someone who possesses exceptional creativity and originality. A conductor is certainly an important aspect of classical music, but I don't think they should be labelled as geniuses for the simple fact that they didn't write the music. I simply refer to them as good musicians.

Me too, but I don't completely agree about conductors; the genius can show itself in many differrent ways. I think you need exceptional creativity, originality and orchestral brilliance to interpret and conduct a piece beautifully as well, otherwise how could the expressive power and the strenght of music, in their purest form, leave the score and deeply touch the audience. Of course, not every conductor could be so, so effective to deserve to be called "genius".
Anyway, there are just three conductors I consider geniuses: Karajan, Bernstein and Carlos Kleiber.

I'm sorry we have different opinions about that, John; but it's an interesting discussion. :)
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

Quote from: knight66 on April 06, 2012, 12:22:34 AM
Just wait until you get to Gotterdammerung, the best of him and the best of his Ring. I love the ventelated forward sound and a lot of the singing is marvelous.

Mike

I am very excited about it, Mike! :)

Concerning the 'genius' discussion... I think conductors could be called geniuses too, but less often than a composer could be. I would certainly call Bernstein a genius for example. And nowadays, perhaps Nelsons is heading towards that title too... but it's only conductors that have a completely different, original, and of course brilliant, idea towards the music they perform and those who convey it in the most convincing way to their orchestras and audiences that I would apply the term 'genius' to.
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 06, 2012, 04:06:30 AM
Concerning the 'genius' discussion... I think conductors could be called geniuses too, but less often than a composer could be. I would certainly call Bernstein a genius for example. And nowadays, perhaps Nelsons is heading towards that title too... but it's only conductors that have a completely different, original, and of course brilliant, idea towards the music they perform and those who convey it in the most convincing way to their orchestras and audiences that I would apply the term 'genius' to.

Well said Daniel, I certainly agree :)
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

Lisztianwagner

I also agree about Nelsons; he's still too young to be considered a genius, but he's certainly on the right way.
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

knight66

Quote from: madaboutmahler on April 06, 2012, 04:06:30 AM
I am very excited about it, Mike! :)

Concerning the 'genius' discussion... I think conductors could be called geniuses too, but less often than a composer could be. I would certainly call Bernstein a genius for example. And nowadays, perhaps Nelsons is heading towards that title too... but it's only conductors that have a completely different, original, and of course brilliant, idea towards the music they perform and those who convey it in the most convincing way to their orchestras and audiences that I would apply the term 'genius' to.

I am not sure about genius. I have not tried ever to tie down just what it means. For sure Bernstein was protean and his learning both deep and wide. I did watch a documentry on Nelsons being engaged as the Brimingham orchestra conductor and for sure some hard bitten and experienced orchestral players would clearly buy in to the idea of genius.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Mirror Image

#1391
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 06, 2012, 03:27:32 AMMe too, but I don't completely agree about conductors; the genius can show itself in many differrent ways. I think you need exceptional creativity, originality and orchestral brilliance to interpret and conduct a piece beautifully as well, otherwise how could the expressive power and the strenght of music, in their purest form, leave the score and deeply touch the audience. Of course, not every conductor could be so, so effective to deserve to be called "genius".
Anyway, there are just three conductors I consider geniuses: Karajan, Bernstein and Carlos Kleiber.

I'm sorry we have different opinions about that, John; but it's an interesting discussion. :)

I thought about this later on last night after this discussion kind of fizzled out and I have to say that I guess a musician could be considered a genius. I mean, again, I do want to use this term minimally as I can because not every classical musician is a genius. That said, it does take a considerable gift to conduct an orchestra and get them to do what you want to do creatively with the music.

eyeresist

I think the distinction should be made between creative genius and interpretive genius. Composers, writers, painters are (or can be) creative geniuses; conductors, musicians, actors can be interpretive geniuses. For myself, I'd rather be a second-rate creator than a first-rate interpreter.

knight66

I don't agree there. I would rather be working with the best of it than struggling with something second rate. But neither is an actual option, so it is not really contentious.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Philoctetes


DavidW

I just realized that I don't have an avatar, I should fix that! :D

eyeresist


TheGSMoeller


Opus106

Regards,
Navneeth

TheGSMoeller