A thread to discuss CD-Rs.

[JBS]

As the title indicates...

[aukhawk]

There's nothing wrong with CD-Rs (although, I have to say, they are more than a bit last-century millennium).  If there's a problem, don't blame the medium, it's more likely to be user error.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Don't know whether or not the other postings were delete or were moved elsewhere?

PD

[Daverz]

It's the only way to get some stuff, unless you can find original pressings that aren't expensive.  I suggest ripping them immediately with software that can verify the rips against an online database.  EAC and CueRipper can verify them against two different databases.  Then backup the rips.

[André Le Nôtre]

Up until five or so years ago, I used to buy CD-Rs regularly for digitizing LPs. I was even able to find them at CVS (one of two or three soulless mega-drugstore chains in the U.S.). I doubt they still carry them.

It was a sort of direct-to-disk operation with little room for error in inserting track breaks, levels, etc. My CD recorder died aboot five years ago and I bought an Audio Art ADC, which I use with Audacity. I am much happier with this setup: Direct to FLAC with no disk intermediate that needs to be ripped after the fact. I can also encode at 48 KHz or higher.

I think that CR-Rs, like all CDs are on the way out. Music lovers seem to increasingly prefer LPs and/or downloads. (I myself still buy a lot of CDs, but am increasingly looking to high-res downloads.) I have shelves and shelves of CDs that I rarely look at anymore now that they are all FLAC-ed. Even for info from liner notes, it is often just easier to look stuff up online. I am keeping the CDs for now as the ultimate backup in case everything goes to Southern California hell.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

It's the only way to get some stuff, unless you can find original pressings that aren't expensive.  I suggest ripping them immediately with software that can verify the rips against an online database.  EAC and CueRipper can verify them against two different databases.  Then backup the rips.

I know, some of those online prices!  Who are they aimed at?  Billionaires?!

I've never tried to verify rips before.  How well does that work for highly recorded works...particularly live performances?

Up until five or so years ago, I used to buy CD-Rs regularly for digitizing LPs. I was even able to find them at CVS (one of two or three soulless mega-drugstore chains in the U.S.). I doubt they still carry them.

It was a sort of direct-to-disk operation with little room for error in inserting track breaks, levels, etc. My CD recorder died aboot five years ago and I bought an Audio Art ADC, which I use with Audacity. I am much happier with this setup: Direct to FLAC with no disk intermediate that needs to be ripped after the fact. I can also encode at 48 KHz or higher.

I think that CR-Rs, like all CDs are on the way out. Music lovers seem to increasingly prefer LPs and/or downloads. (I myself still buy a lot of CDs, but am increasingly looking to high-res downloads.) I have shelves and shelves of CDs that I rarely look at anymore now that they are all FLAC-ed. Even for info from liner notes, it is often just easier to look stuff up online. I am keeping the CDs for now as the ultimate backup in case everything goes to Southern California hell.

Interesting.  Are you finding that you are buying more and more external hard drives to store your music on?  And about how much more space does FLAC take up vs. CD rips?  I've been increasingly tempted to try listening platforms like Qobuz too.

PD

p.s.  Wow, I see that overnight things went from very bad to hellish in northern California re fires, air, evacuations, etc.!  And things are hot and dry with more fires in other parts of the state too.  How is it in your area?  And stay safe!

[bluto32]

I've never tried to verify rips before.  How well does that work for highly recorded works...particularly live performances?

It doesn't matter what sort of music you are verifying or whether the works are common or recorded live. The audio data is treated as binary data when verifying a rip; it needn't be "music".

When you rip a CD with EAC software, it calculates a checksum of the audio data extracted for each track, along with an "ID" checksum for the CD which is based on the exact track timings. These checksums are uploaded to two databases: AccurateRip and more recently CueTools too for good measure. EAC then analyses all previously uploaded checksums from other people with the same CD (as identified by the ID checksum), and lets you know how many matches per track you have from each database. For example, it may say something like "Track 1: 236/240 match" which means that your CD track 1 exactly matches those of 236 people. The other 4 people may have a different pressing, or errors in their CDs.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

It doesn't matter what sort of music you are verifying or whether the works are common or recorded live. The audio data is treated as binary data when verifying a rip; it needn't be "music".

When you rip a CD with EAC software, it calculates a checksum of the audio data extracted for each track, along with an "ID" checksum for the CD which is based on the exact track timings. These checksums are uploaded to two databases (AccurateRip and more recently CueTools too for good measure). EAC then analyses all previously uploaded checksums from other people with the same CD (as identified by the ID checksum), and lets you know how many matches per track you have from each database. For example, it may say something like "Track 1: 236/240 match" which means that your CD track 1 exactly matches those of 236 other people. The other 4 people may have a different pressing, or errors in their CDs.

Thanks for the explanation.  That sounds close to what I went through when I tried using Collectorz music cataloging program (stopped that several years ago).  I remember that it checked for an ID which then was compared to I believe that it was Discogs?  Fairly often though, it didn't pull up the correct album...and you could spend some time clicking on each option to see whether or not it might be a match.     Artwork, for classical at least, was often off (which is understandable given older recordings and re-releases).  It didn't give you the numbers though re matches per track.  There were a lot of things that I liked about their cataloging program though and was looking forward to being able to use it on my phone when shopping.  Sorry, I'm digressing here.  Thanks again! 

PD

[Daverz]

I know, some of those online prices!  Who are they aimed at?  Billionaires?!

There seem to be collectors that obsess over older pressings of CDs (though I think that's only part of the explanation of the ridiculous Amazon listings).  That seems to make some sense for POP, where pre-Loudness Wars pressings are sought after, but doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense for classical CDs.

[André Le Nôtre]

I know, some of those online prices!  Who are they aimed at?  Billionaires?!

I've never tried to verify rips before.  How well does that work for highly recorded works...particularly live performances?
Interesting.  Are you finding that you are buying more and more external hard drives to store your music on?  And about how much more space does FLAC take up vs. CD rips?  I've been increasingly tempted to try listening platforms like Qobuz too.

PD

p.s.  Wow, I see that overnight things went from very bad to hellish in northern California re fires, air, evacuations, etc.!  And things are hot and dry with more fires in other parts of the state too.  How is it in your area?  And stay safe!

Hi PD,

I have thousands of ripped CDs and digitized LPs--all in FLAC format. The file size is not an issue, given that HDD prices have become very cheap--I just bought a new 6 TB LaCie drive for about $300, which will not even get halfway filled with all my music, plus all of my large filesize photos (raw format), videos and other files. I have several HDDs in several locations--most of them not physically connected to any PC, to prevent problems in the case of a malware or ransomware attack. I do not quite trust the cloud for my own files, although I do have one cloud account at work that I use to back up my work-related files (some very large lecture videos).

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Hi PD,

I have thousands of ripped CDs and digitized LPs--all in FLAC format. The file size is not an issue, given that HDD prices have become very cheap--I just bought a new 6 TB LaCie drive for about $300, which will not even get halfway filled with all my music, plus all of my large filesize photos (raw format), videos and other files. I have several HDDs in several locations--most of them not physically connected to any PC, to prevent problems in the case of a malware or ransomware attack. I do not quite trust the cloud for my own files, although I do have one cloud account at work that I use to back up my work-related files (some very large lecture videos).

Thanks for your comments.  Nice to note that you don't seem to be running out of space!    I haven't looked into this in ages.  Most of my music that I've ripped is in Apple Lossless and in iTunes.  Years ago, I backed it up to an external hard drive (along with a cataloging program which I no longer use).  Just in terms of using the external hard drive for music storage, is there anything that I would need to do (in terms of formatting it) and would I run into any issues in terms of being able to use it to play various formats?  I currently only have Macs.  One thing that I don't like about iTunes is that you can't import FLAC files into it directly.  I'd imagine that then I would need to get a DAC..but what kind of a device would that get hooked to as my older tube pre-amp wasn't built to handle streaming music?  Sorry, I'm get a bit off-topic here...not certain where else to ask about these things.

PD

[bluto32]

Foobar2000 is an excellent piece of free music software which (among other things) allows you to transcode music files from one format to another. You can, for example, losslessly convert FLAC files to Apple Lossless, while transferring any tags/album art. Although primarily developed for the PC, I believe the Mac version is updated enough to allow you to do this.

[aukhawk]

I'd imagine that then I would need to get a DAC..but what kind of a device would that get hooked to as my older tube pre-amp wasn't built to handle streaming music?

If getting into playing music from digital files, there are so many ways to skin this cat ...

If you go for a music streamer, they all have DACs built in, and straightforward phono out to your pre-amp.  Yamaha might be a good place to start looking - just ignore all the high-end stuff from Linn etc which has nothing to add really.  A streamer can play your local files or of course tap in to the named streaming services such as Spotify, Tidal etc.

Another way, which is more straighforward in concept but (IMHO) a bit clumsy in practice, is to just play the music from your computer or phone, connected to a 'USB DAC' which again has phono outs to your preamp.  Dacs can be had for £10, or £100, or £1000+ and the chances are very good that you or I wouldn't hear any difference.  So at the very least, experimenting with a cheap one needn't cost much.  The files can be stored on your Mac or phone, or on a connected USB drive, or on network storage - whatever you prefer.  And of course your Mac or phone can access the streaming services as well - so it's all much the same in the end.  Some people who do this keep a dedicated small and silent laptop (like a Chromebook) always-on just for music playing.

There are also wireless possibilities using 'casting' which I'll leave for someone else.

It's all too easy to make this much more complicated than it needs to be - I know I did, at first! - and I'm still living with the consequences!

[Daverz]

Thanks for your comments.  Nice to note that you don't seem to be running out of space!    I haven't looked into this in ages.  Most of my music that I've ripped is in Apple Lossless and in iTunes.  Years ago, I backed it up to an external hard drive (along with a cataloging program which I no longer use).  Just in terms of using the external hard drive for music storage, is there anything that I would need to do (in terms of formatting it) and would I run into any issues in terms of being able to use it to play various formats?  I currently only have Macs. 

I'd avoid formatting the drives as HDF since other operating systems can't write to it.  I have several drives like this now, and only way to make them writeable is to backup the data on yet another drive and reformat.  But I'm not sure what to use so that large file sizes can be used.  It looks like ExFat will work, but I haven't tried that.

One thing that I don't like about iTunes is that you can't import FLAC files into it directly.  I'd imagine that then I would need to get a DAC..but what kind of a device would that get hooked to as my older tube pre-amp wasn't built to handle streaming music?  Sorry, I'm get a bit off-topic here...not certain where else to ask about these things.

I like using a Raspberry Pi 4 for just the network streaming part and a USB DAC.  The RPi connects to your network (wired or wirelessly) and the USB DAC connects to the RPi. 

There's a wide variety of streaming software for the Pi (like Volumnio), it's very easy to set up, and works with many USB DACs, like the Topping E30 that I'm using in my main stereo right now.  An RPi4 starter kit and a Topping E30 would run you a little over $200 with shipping.

https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi-4b-starter-kit/ (2GB version is fine for streaming)
https://apos.audio/products/topping-e30-dac

[Holden]

I'd avoid formatting the drives as HDF since other operating systems can't write to it.  I have several drives like this now, and only way to make them writeable is to backup the data on yet another drive and reformat.  But I'm not sure what to use so that large file sizes can be used.  It looks like ExFat will work, but I haven't tried that.

This is the mistake I made - formatting my 2Tb LaCie as HFS+ because it didn't initially occur to me that I might want to put some of the music on a USB stick for play elsewhere on a non Mac system.

However, there is a solution. I formatted the USB to exFAT which writes and reads both Mac and PC files. When I buy another LaCie to backup the one I'm putting my CD collection onto it will be formatted as exFAT.

[aukhawk]

Like I say, its easy to make this much more complicated than it needs to be.

You've got a phone?  You can play music on your phone? 
OK, all that remains is to get that music into your amplifier.
The normal (dare I say old-skule) way to do this is with a 'USB DAC' (may be different for iphones, I wouldn't know) and a cable or two.  The cheapest USB DAC I've seen on Amazon costs £8 but there's plenty of scope to pay more than that if you want.

Disclaimer: it's not the only way - me, I don't even own a smartphone - I use a streamer and I think its wonderful - but even that really need be no more complicated than replacing your old CD player with a black box called 'streamer' that does the same thing using the same connections.

To be clear - I consider myself pretty geeky but I don't stray into Raspberry Pi territory.

[Holden]

My music sits on a HDD and I play it through my Mac. To get the best possible sound (without paying too much) I use, as Aukhawk recommends, a USB DAC/Amp. I was patriotic and bought an Australian brand, the Burson Play. It's also an excellent piece of equipment and as I didn't need portability it was a no brainer.

I use it straight out of my Mac into both a desktop speaker system and headphones.

There are DAC/Amps out there by Schiit, Topping, Fiio, Audioquest (portable), etc. You can pay as little as less than $200 or thousands.

All I know is that I wouldn't be without my set up.

[betterthanfine]

There seem to be collectors that obsess over older pressings of CDs (though I think that's only part of the explanation of the ridiculous Amazon listings).  That seems to make some sense for POP, where pre-Loudness Wars pressings are sought after, but doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense for classical CDs.-

Oh but it does. I recently compared the 1980 CBS pressing of Perahia's recording of the Beethoven concertos with Haitink and the Concertgebouw with the 2007 Sony remaster, since I always found the orchestra to sound quite dull in that recording. Hearing the earlier pressing was a WORLD of difference, as it has much more overtones and depth in the sound. You can actually hear the fantastic hall in which the recording was made, whereas the remaster sounds much more flat and dull. Same goes for a lot of EMI Great Recordings of the Century when you compare them to earlier pressings.

Also, I tend to stay away from Hyperion these days, ever since I realised that the pianissimi on their recordings sometimes tend to sound nearly as loud as the fortes due to the sound being so equalised. Big labels like Deutsche Gramophon and Decca suffer from this too. Take Perahia's French Suites for instance, or Sokolov's latest discs. The sound doesn't 'bloom' at all, everything is equalised to death. It's a little hard to explain without audio examples, but I've been meaning to start a thread about this to see if other people have noticed the same thing.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I'll have to try and hook up my Lacie hard drive and check the formatting; can't remember what I had set it up for...it's been that long!

What I would like to do, rather than being forced to listen to things like FLAC files over my Macs, would be to have a system set up so that I could listen to it through my good stereo system.  I'll copy down all of your suggestions, in any event, and keep them on hand when I dig in further.  I might also contact my audio guy to see what he suggests as he knows what equipment I have too. 

Thanks to all! 

PD

[aligreto]

When searching on Amazon.co.uk for an image to post today I saw this in the Product Description section for that CD. I had not noticed this type of statement before but perhaps it is common enough. I thought that it was interesting.

When sold by Amazon.com, this product will be manufactured on demand using CD-R recordable media. Amazon.com's standard return policy will apply.