The French Music Exploration thread

[Papy Oli]

Great post!  I am sure we all could substitute our own composers for your oysters, sticky toffee pudding and ginger bread!  But what would your comfort food/composer/piece of music from childhood be??!!

mine would be:  homemade treacle sponge = Malcolm Arnold (specifically Tam O'Shanter) which was my 1st "favourite" piece on the 1st LP of my own that I bought......

If I want something comforting, I tend to always go for any of the first three sonatas by Beethoven Op.2 No.1,2,3. They cheer me up no end every time. A bit like that tall glass of cold chocolate milk I had as a kid (and still have as a kid well into his forties  )

(Talking of Arnold, his Grand Grand Overture gives me that happy feeling too every time too!!)

Anyway, back on topic.

Anyone fancy picking a name in the list on page 1 for me next to explore, randomly or not (not Debussy, Ravel or Fauré yet though). The composer name mentioned in the 1st post right below this one will be my next port of call, thank you.   

[some guy]

For the life of me I cannot understand why some people are so deeply concerned with other people's listening habits and waste no opportunity to criticize them for not being in line with their own and to try modifying them according to their own. Looks like such people simply cannot enjoy their favorite music unless and until everybody else enjoys it.

Papy Oli identified a problem. I read his description of the problem and saw a logical solution to it. That's all.

Nothing to do with being "deeply concerned with other people's listening habits," nothing to do with criticizing people for anything, nothing to do with "favorite music" or with the sources of enjoyment, either.

Papy Oli set this up originally to get reactions and responses to his listening habits. Lots of people have responded by making suggestions about his listening habits and about what to listen to next. He just asked for a suggestion as to what to listen to next. Someone will make a suggestion (no, it won't be me) and he will take that on. Pretty ordinary behavior round these parts, no?

Just generally, what you seem excessively exercised about is is pretty ordinary behavior round these parts--people with favorites encouraging other people to share their enjoyment. Everyone does this. Everyone. If I differ from this in any way, it is that I do this rather remarkably less than everyone else.

The problem is articulated all the time, too. Since different people have different tastes, there's never going to be any agreement about what's worth listening to. That's the easy part. The difficulty arises, I think, with the solutions to the problem (X does not hit the spot). The solutions typically focus on the X's. Something's wrong with the piece or something's wrong with the performance. Or, in a nice twist, something's wrong with the whole idea of there being a problem. I look at the situation and see a solution. Focus on the spot, instead. (Not on different spots, Olivier! There's only the one spot, and the problem is that only a few of all the different things are hitting it.) If the spot is small, then the search will be for finding the things that will hit that spot. That one spot. It will be a frustrating search. The spot is small. Not very many things will hit it. And only the same type of things will do that hitting in "the right way." So the search will end up revealing simply more of the same.

Make the spot, the one spot, bigger. Nothing to do with liking or disliking any particular thing, especially not with liking any particular thing that I happen to like. If Olivier makes his spot bigger, will Ferrari ever hit it? Possibly not. I'm pretty sure that no matter how large my spot is, Wagner will never hit it. That's fine. Will Wagner fans continue to try to get me to like some Wagner? Probably. That's what fans do. All fans, Florestan. And that's fine, too.

Remember y'all. No composer is trying to hit your spot. That's not what's going on at all. You've got a spot. Some things will hit it, some won't. Your spot is not being aimed at. The bigger the spot, the more things will hit it. That is simply all there is to it.

[Florestan]

I break my promise with this post but I can't help it.

Papy Oli identified a problem. I read his description of the problem and saw a logical solution to it. That's all.

Incorrect. Olivier identified absolutely no problem whatsoever. He simply said that Pierne's music did not hit the spot for him. Never did he make even the slightest suggestion that this is for him a problem in need of a solution.

The only one here who perceives this as being a problem is you.

The problem is articulated all the time, too. Since different people have different tastes, there's never going to be any agreement about what's worth listening to. That's the easy part. The difficulty arises, I think, with the solutions to the problem (X does not hit the spot). The solutions typically focus on the X's. Something's wrong with the piece or something's wrong with the performance. Or, in a nice twist, something's wrong with the whole idea of there being a problem.

Precisely. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with "X does not hit Y's spot". Zero, zilch, nada de nada. Again, it's you and you alone who have a problem with that and make such a fuss about it.

[Madiel]

Anyone fancy picking a name in the list on page 1 for me next to explore, randomly or not (not Debussy, Ravel or Fauré yet though). The composer name mentioned in the 1st post right below this one will be my next port of call, thank you. 

Ahem.

Lots of names I'm curious about, but we'll get to them all eventually. I ended up picking Maurice Duruflé. Please.

PS I've just realised that Henri Duparc isn't on your list. I seem to recall that songs are not a favourite genre of yours, but Duparc's small body of work does include some utterly superb songs in my opinion.

[Papy Oli]

Papy Oli identified a problem.

I do not perceive Pierné not hitting my spot as a problem. I do not blame Pierné nor do I blame myself for this "mismatch".

At least, not anymore.

Until a few months back, yes, I would have perceived it as a personal setback and definitely something being wrong with me. That's what's "eaten away" at me for years when I didn't get Vaughan Williams, Shostakovitch or Sibelius (what do the others get that I don't). That was extremely counter-productive and made listening to them feeling like a chore devoid of enjoyment, as not "getting it".

I see where you are coming from with the wider personal spot. I even agree with it to a large extent, with the idea of the listener having to be ready to accept the music as is. Where we'll have to agree to disagree, is that (from a previous post, correct me if I am wrong), you take the work solely on its own merit, leaving your (any?) emotional response at the door. For me, that emotional response is my first and probably only port of call. I rely on this because i am not musically trained to add a layer of technical response and appreciation to the music.

Letting go of that problem, that personal hindrance and hang up was key for me. This is why in the last few months I have eventually found enjoyment in Vaughan Williams, some Schnittke (this one really taught me to let any prejudice at the door!), some Boulez, now Escaich, etc...but not Varese. I tried it (with, I believe, an open mind), it was challenging but the response I had to it is not a feeling I seek to repeat at this stage (call it on edge, uncomfortable, queasy..). So I choose to be ruthless and move on. Maybe in a few months or years time it may change when I come across Varèse again.

I consider that one new composer at a time, it is still widening that spot of mine, even if it is by an increment at a time. You may get greater results by your wider approach, I am fine with that incremental one   

[Papy Oli]

Ahem.

Lots of names I'm curious about, but we'll get to them all eventually. I ended up picking Maurice Duruflé. Please.

PS I've just realised that Henri Duparc isn't on your list. I seem to recall that songs are not a favourite genre of yours, but Duparc's small body of work does include some utterly superb songs in my opinion.

And why not... Duruflé it is ! 

I only have his requiem in my collection (HM Sacred Music boxset), I'll start with that and seek further.

I'll add Duparc, thank you.

[pjme]

Maurice and Madeleine have an association.
https://www.france-orgue.fr/durufle/index.php?zpg=drf.mmm.pre
Most of it French only.
Small oeuvre.
Between 1919 and 1926 he studied/worked with: Charles Tournemire, Eugène Gigout, Jean Gallon, Georges Caussade, Charles-Marie Widor, Paul Dukas and Louis Vierne!!
I wonder what P. O. thinks.

[Papy Oli]

Thank you Peter, I have lined a few of the works for this afternoon listening.

[Papy Oli]

started with :  Op. 3   Prélude, Récitatif et Variations pour Flûte, alto et piano, dédié à Jacques Durand

Live sound not brilliant, but a nice little piece (with flute  ).

Strangely enough, Louis Moyse on this CD is the son of Marcel Moyse, who as per the website above ("Oeuvres" tab) played it for the first time in 1929.

[Madiel]

I don't even know the Requiem so I'm going to start there. But tomorrow. There's copious amounts of football to watch tonight...

I didn't initially realise that I'd picked a composer with so few opuses to his name.

[Papy Oli]

I don't even know the Requiem so I'm going to start there. But tomorrow. There's copious amounts of football to watch tonight...

Aussie Rules ? Soccer ? or Rugby Football ? 

I didn't initially realise that I'd picked a composer with so few opuses to his name.

I nearly did a Madiel but couldn't find Op.1 and Op.2 so i am sticking to my usual random order !

[Madiel]

Aussie Rules ? Soccer ? or Rugby Football ? 

Possibly all 3 actually... rugby league and Aussie rules are both in the finals at the end of the season (1 match each tonight) plus I want to catch up on the soccer in Europe from overnight!

[Papy Oli]

Possibly all 3 actually... rugby league and Aussie rules are both in the finals at the end of the season (1 match each tonight) plus I want to catch up on the soccer in Europe from overnight!

Nice mix of an evening, enjoy !

[Papy Oli]

Well, Duruflé is really top notch.

I am finishing this one and these are just gorgeous works.

Started with some little gems :  Notre Père pour chœur a cappella  &  Quatre Motets sur des thèmes grégoriens pour chœur a cappella, Op. 10. Played those twice. Loved them.

Then Messe "Cum Jubilo" pour chœur de barytons et orgue, Op. 11

Finishing his Requiem pour soli, chœurs et orgue, Op. 9 at the moment.

Superb singing and fantastic sound.

Having perused the (very short) Duruflé thread, there appears to be 3 different versions of the requiem : Large Orch + Organ, Small Orch + Organ, Organ only. The below is the latter. Having check my shelves, my version in the HM Sacred music box is small orch + Organ. I'll dig it up tomorrow. Can anyone point to a large orch + organ version please ?



I'll make an attempt at his organ music afterwards.

[Biffo]

And why not... Duruflé it is ! 

I only have his requiem in my collection (HM Sacred Music boxset), I'll start with that and seek further.

I'll add Duparc, thank you.

After Durufle you could try Koechlin

[Papy Oli]

After Durufle you could try Koechlin

Could do  there's one chance in 70 that it might be him 

[pjme]

Duruflé's "Trois dances" for orchestra are quite substantial and hover somewhere between very early Messiaen -in - Ascension -mood and l'Apprenti sorcier.

I had this LP - Duruflé conducts the ORTF orchestra.



And I knew his name from this recording:

[Papy Oli]

checking the Trois Danses now on this one, thank you :

https://www.youtube.com/v/PxEOqj1wHWU

[some guy]

I see where you are coming from with the wider personal spot. I even agree with it to a large extent, with the idea of the listener having to be ready to accept the music as is. Where we'll have to agree to disagree, is that (from a previous post, correct me if I am wrong), you take the work solely on its own merit, leaving your (any?) emotional response at the door.

OK, though usually what people mean by "correct me if I am wrong" is "I am right; I dare you to contradict me." The first part is close. I do not think that "merit" is quite the right concept for this situation. Merit implies judgment, and I do attempt to reserve judgment, especially at this early stage. The second part is way off. I am not even sure that that is possible. Emotional responding is just what we do, regardless. What I certainly try not to do is let my initial response count for anything. It sounds like it's similar for you. For years, I found Berio's "Visage" unlistenable. I don't think I mentioned that to anyone, though, because I didn't think it meant anything much, except that I was not ready for it. When I was, it would be fine (and it is). And if I never was, there would be plenty of other things to listen to. We certainly agree about that.

My point here was not about what you personally should do or not do. Something had not hit the spot for you. That implies that "hitting the spot" is the goal of all this business, that not hitting the spot means that something has gone wrong. Simply as a matter of logic, it occurred to me that instead of fretting about the putative qualities of this or that arrow (to express the metaphor baldly), one could simply enlarge the spot, not as some philosophical imperative, as it has been interpreted, but simply as a practical matter.

And, also just as a practical matter, I would note, again, that the pieces don't change. The notes in Varèse's Arcana occur in the same order, in the same combinations, for everyone. What's different is the everyone. It is so easy when a piece puts one off to identify the problem (if you'll allow me that word) as being in the piece. But the piece is constant. Nothing you can do or say will ever change the piece. The people listening to the piece, however, are all over the place. Some love it; some hate it. Some start out hating it, but end up loving it. Some (though I would hope fewer) start out loving it, but end up hating it. And everything in between. In all this activity, in all this flux, the piece remains the same. It is just itself. So it seems to make sense to focus on the thing that changes rather than the thing that does not.

As a practical matter.

[pjme]

checking the Trois Danses now on this one, thank you :

https://www.youtube.com/v/PxEOqj1wHWU

Here's a (not very good sounding radio) recording of Duruflé's other orchestral work, "Andante et scherzo" opus 8 "dédié à Henri Tomasi". It is NOT opus 20.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HuWHRbK9jwo