The French Music Exploration thread

Started by Papy Oli, September 14, 2020, 03:17:20 AM

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pjme

We had a Tournemire topic between 2005 and 2016:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4110.0.html

Mostly positive reactions and the usual complaints about the Almeida performances.
I remember the world première of the 8th symphony in Antwerp 1992 - Muhai Tang conducting the Antwerp SO, if I remember correctly.





Irons

Messiaen/Roussel/Satie/Milhaud: Works for Violin and Piano.



Works by French composers played by French artists on French pressed vinyl. :) The two that stood out for me is the quirky - no change there - Satie with "Choses vues a droite et a gauche" a three movement violin sonata with a total timing of 3.82 minutes! The opening movement is titled Choral Hypocrite. Satie never fails to surprise! My overall favourite was the the most French: Milhaud's 2nd Violin Sonata, with a lovely Pastorale opening movement.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

kyjo

Quote from: pjme on September 28, 2020, 06:22:31 AM
...and the last movement of symphony nr. 6 - which is very impressive (wordless chorus, brass, organ, bells, tamtam, timpani & cymbals) in an almost Mahlerian way.
I like symphony nr 3 - for it is quite short and has interesting orchestration. The other symphonies meander...inspite of many elegant melodies, exquisite orchestration.

Tournemire's 6th is a hugely impressive work, deserving of masterpiece status I'd say. That ending is thrilling!
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

pjme

Any thoughts on this: Cantique des trois enfants dans la fournaise by Philippe Hersant. ?

https://www.youtube.com/v/kL9WRv75qpM

This "cantique" mirrors intentionally  the Messe à 4 Choeurs by Marc-Antoine Charpentier.
I find it magical and moving.

some guy

Just a brief reminder that France is essentially the birthplace of electroacoustic music. Electroacoustic music has been around for about the same amount of time as the classical era. Imagine a thread for exploring classical music that ignored the classical era to the same extent that this thread ignores electroacoustic music.

Now there are plenty of classical fans who aren't thrilled by the music of the classical era, but none of them would be allowed to ignore that era in the way that electroacoustic music is ignored.

People can promote the likes of Tournemire without fear of backlash, pretty much, but promoting electroacoustic calls up all the furies of Erebus to excoriate your presumption.

Oh well.

But for anyone who genuinely wants to explore French music, there's a huge and largely unheard world of it just waiting for ya. I've been doing it for almost fifty years now, and can attest to how much fun it is. Plus, most of its practitioners are still alive and quite personable. One of the earliest of those is one of the "still alive" ones, too, and a really lovely man. (As a matter of curiosity, he studied under both Koechlin and Boulanger. Two people that a lot of GMGers favor.)

Madiel

I listened to Campra's Requiem, as performed by John Eliot Gardiner, and liked what I was hearing a lot. More than I expected.

I've dabbled in a little bit of Tournemire but it hasn't really grabbed me yet. I'm going to dabble a little more.

Papy Oli is that the last composer you'd done? I've lost track.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Papy Oli

Quote from: Madiel on October 02, 2020, 11:48:07 PM
I listened to Campra's Requiem, as performed by John Eliot Gardiner, and liked what I was hearing a lot. More than I expected.

I've dabbled in a little bit of Tournemire but it hasn't really grabbed me yet. I'm going to dabble a little more.

Papy Oli is that the last composer you'd done? I've lost track.

Hi Madiel,

Sorry, very sporadic listening this week. Yes Tournemire was the last composer i listened to in bulk. Not for me overall, just trying his Symphony No.3 "Moscou" which was recommended here earlier as a last try.

Looking back at my posts, I also listened to once Magnard's Orchestral works on Naxos (I had discovered and thoroughly enjoyed his symphonies already before starting this project) and also to one Pierné CD. Pierné will be my next proper port of call next I think.

Glad you found the Campra of interest. It really hit the spot for me despite usually listening to this period in small doses.
Olivier

Papy Oli

Quote from: pjme on September 30, 2020, 09:14:47 AM
Any thoughts on this: Cantique des trois enfants dans la fournaise by Philippe Hersant. ?

https://www.youtube.com/v/kL9WRv75qpM

This "cantique" mirrors intentionally  the Messe à 4 Choeurs by Marc-Antoine Charpentier.
I find it magical and moving.

Saved to watch later, thank you Peter.
Olivier

Papy Oli

Quote from: some guy on September 30, 2020, 09:52:42 AM
Just a brief reminder that France is essentially the birthplace of electroacoustic music. Electroacoustic music has been around for about the same amount of time as the classical era. Imagine a thread for exploring classical music that ignored the classical era to the same extent that this thread ignores electroacoustic music.

Now there are plenty of classical fans who aren't thrilled by the music of the classical era, but none of them would be allowed to ignore that era in the way that electroacoustic music is ignored.

People can promote the likes of Tournemire without fear of backlash, pretty much, but promoting electroacoustic calls up all the furies of Erebus to excoriate your presumption.

Oh well.

But for anyone who genuinely wants to explore French music, there's a huge and largely unheard world of it just waiting for ya. I've been doing it for almost fifty years now, and can attest to how much fun it is. Plus, most of its practitioners are still alive and quite personable. One of the earliest of those is one of the "still alive" ones, too, and a really lovely man. (As a matter of curiosity, he studied under both Koechlin and Boulanger. Two people that a lot of GMGers favor.)

We'll get there, SG  ;D  Some of your recommended names are in the list and be sure they will be approached in due course too like all others'. Likely to start with Pierre Henry actually soon.

The purpose of this little project is not to dismiss any genres or periods; on the contrary ! but please bear in mind we all have our own musical journeys, our own musical sweet spots. Regardless how we approach any music, some of it can feel way out of one's comfort zones (like Varèse did for me for instance). My attempts on those names (or any names) may be successful or extremely short-lived but I will have a good go and will see how I respond to it. I am sure others will tag along too when we get to your recommended music too. 
Olivier

Madiel

#209
Quote from: Papy Oli on October 03, 2020, 12:53:58 AM
Hi Madiel,

Sorry, very sporadic listening this week. Yes Tournemire was the last composer i listened to in bulk. Not for me overall, just trying his Symphony No.3 "Moscou" which was recommended here earlier as a last try.

Looking back at my posts, I also listened to once Magnard's Orchestral works on Naxos (I had discovered and thoroughly enjoyed his symphonies already before starting this project) and also to one Pierné CD. Pierné will be my next proper port of call next I think.

Glad you found the Campra of interest. It really hit the spot for me despite usually listening to this period in small doses.

Same regarding Campra. Not a period that I would often gravitate to, but I found it rewarding.

When you set up this thread, my own view was entirely that I would come along and join you on the journey that you had chosen. In part because I had already noticed that our interests often aligned - not always, but reasonably often. But also in part just because I thought going along the same path at the same time would be interesting, given I have been drawn towards some French composers recently.

It both fascinates and irritates me that any number of other people think the goal of this thread is not to walk alongside you, but to tell you where to go.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

pjme

Quote from: Madiel on October 03, 2020, 02:01:20 AM
It both fascinates and irritates me that any number of other people think the goal of this thread is not to walk alongside you, but to tell you where to go.

Well observed. It's easy to get carried away and forget -after a couple of pages -  the initial post.

some guy

Quote from: Papy Oli on October 03, 2020, 01:19:40 AM
We'll get there, SG  ;D  Some of your recommended names are in the list and be sure they will be approached in due course too like all others'. Likely to start with Pierre Henry actually soon.

The purpose of this little project is not to dismiss any genres or periods; on the contrary ! but please bear in mind we all have our own musical journeys, our own musical sweet spots. Regardless how we approach any music, some of it can feel way out of one's comfort zones (like Varèse did for me for instance). My attempts on those names (or any names) may be successful or extremely short-lived but I will have a good go and will see how I respond to it. I am sure others will tag along too when we get to your recommended music too.

You're OK, Papy. And, Madiel's irritation notwithstanding, my own "little project" is not to tell anyone where to go, but to remind some of the more recalcitrant that some of the places that are consistently avoided are possibly also quite enjoyable. When I was first bowled over by new music, I very naturally wanted to share my discovery with others. Even Madiel enjoys sharing his pleasure in the music he likes. Where we differ is in how we approach those who enjoy sharing things that don't delight us, particularly. And, you know, it's not even that. Most of the things you like, most of the things Madiel likes, most of the things Florestan and vandermolen like, are also favorites of mine. This is something that gets lost sight of in the various observations. Observe this, my dear colleagues: I very much enjoy practically everything you think is fine and good and great. But since I also enjoy a lot of things that y'all strongly deprecate, even without much experience of them, and since those are the things I try to promote (why promote J.S. Bach, for instance, or W.A. Mozart--those people are already practically universally beloved), then I must be squelched.

And the squelchiest way to do that is to accuse me, constantly, of things I have never done. I want to do the same thing Madiel does, talk about the things I love, partly just to express my love and partly to encourage others to sample them. But because some of the things I love are considered anathema to certain of my fellow travellers, expressing my love for those things has to repackaged as me wanting to tell you what to listen to, as me insisting that you like the same things that I like.

Great. You (not "you, Papy Oli" but "you all") can drool all over Rachmaninoff (whom I adore, just by the way) all you like, but me just mentioning Radigue is the worst kind of jackbooted repression, ever. It would be risible were it not so depressing.

T. D.

Quote from: some guy on October 03, 2020, 08:32:03 AM
You're OK, Papy. And, Madiel's irritation notwithstanding, my own "little project" is not to tell anyone where to go, but to remind some of the more recalcitrant that some of the places that are consistently avoided are possibly also quite enjoyable. When I was first bowled over by new music, I very naturally wanted to share my discovery with others. Even Madiel enjoys sharing his pleasure in the music he likes. Where we differ is in how we approach those who enjoy sharing things that don't delight us, particularly. And, you know, it's not even that. Most of the things you like, most of the things Madiel likes, most of the things Florestan and vandermolen like, are also favorites of mine. This is something that gets lost sight of in the various observations. Observe this, my dear colleagues: I very much enjoy practically everything you think is fine and good and great. But since I also enjoy a lot of things that y'all strongly deprecate, even without much experience of them, and since those are the things I try to promote (why promote J.S. Bach, for instance, or W.A. Mozart--those people are already practically universally beloved), then I must be squelched.

And the squelchiest way to do that is to accuse me, constantly, of things I have never done. I want to do the same thing Madiel does, talk about the things I love, partly just to express my love and partly to encourage others to sample them. But because some of the things I love are considered anathema to certain of my fellow travellers, expressing my love for those things has to repackaged as me wanting to tell you what to listen to, as me insisting that you like the same things that I like.

Great. You (not "you, Papy Oli" but "you all") can drool all over Rachmaninoff (whom I adore, just by the way) all you like, but me just mentioning Radigue is the worst kind of jackbooted repression, ever. It would be risible were it not so depressing.

FWIW, perhaps OT and no disrespect to the original poster, but as a lurker on threads like this I hope for suggestions of "peripheral" or less widely-known composers.

André

Obviously we all want to share our pet loves, it's only natural. Others' suggestions of new works or interpretations can be ignored or followed. As for me I plead guilty of both suggesting stuff and succumbing to too many tempting suggestions, at the risk of my eventual ruination  :D

pjme

 :) :) :)
Ah, those pet loves! I really must find music by French female composers. Tailleferre isn't the only one.
But for now: Bonne nuit!

https://www.youtube.com/v/3mZtxcYLRoQ


Madiel

#215
Quote from: some guy on October 03, 2020, 08:32:03 AM
You're OK, Papy. And, Madiel's irritation notwithstanding, my own "little project" is not to tell anyone where to go, but to remind some of the more recalcitrant that some of the places that are consistently avoided are possibly also quite enjoyable. When I was first bowled over by new music, I very naturally wanted to share my discovery with others. Even Madiel enjoys sharing his pleasure in the music he likes. Where we differ is in how we approach those who enjoy sharing things that don't delight us, particularly. And, you know, it's not even that. Most of the things you like, most of the things Madiel likes, most of the things Florestan and vandermolen like, are also favorites of mine. This is something that gets lost sight of in the various observations. Observe this, my dear colleagues: I very much enjoy practically everything you think is fine and good and great. But since I also enjoy a lot of things that y'all strongly deprecate, even without much experience of them, and since those are the things I try to promote (why promote J.S. Bach, for instance, or W.A. Mozart--those people are already practically universally beloved), then I must be squelched.

And the squelchiest way to do that is to accuse me, constantly, of things I have never done. I want to do the same thing Madiel does, talk about the things I love, partly just to express my love and partly to encourage others to sample them. But because some of the things I love are considered anathema to certain of my fellow travellers, expressing my love for those things has to repackaged as me wanting to tell you what to listen to, as me insisting that you like the same things that I like.

Great. You (not "you, Papy Oli" but "you all") can drool all over Rachmaninoff (whom I adore, just by the way) all you like, but me just mentioning Radigue is the worst kind of jackbooted repression, ever. It would be risible were it not so depressing.

Not everything is about you. For instance, my last post was not about you. It was about the whole collection of posts in this thread that have been nothing more than telling Papy Oli what names to add to the list of composers, instead of engaging with the sizable list that already exists.

WHICH names people want added has nothing to do with it. Simply the air of telling him "you're doing it wrong" that has come across from several sources. Some of the posts have been quite literally saying that the list is deficient.

Now, maybe that's because some people here feel that they already well versed in these 80-odd composers and following along as they're explored would be boring to them. Although then I have to wonder at the motivation of getting involved in a boring thread...  But it makes very little sense to me to say to a person, in the very early stages of such a huge listening project, that they need more homework. If people were coming along when the list had shrunk a bit, that would be different, but from the very start the list as is was not good enough for some people.

I might share my 'pet loves' of pieces for particular composers when it's that composer's turn - as people are already sharing pieces when a particular composer comes up. But that's working within the parameters of Papy Oli's choices. What I find weird is the number of people who want to fiddle with the parameters first to make Papy Oli's journey of exploration more to their own liking.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

some guy

#216
Quote from: pjme on October 03, 2020, 01:38:32 PM
:) :) :)
Ah, those pet loves! I really must find music by French female composers. Tailleferre isn't the only one.
But for now: Bonne nuit!

Eliane Radigue
Michèle Bokanowski
Bérangère Maximin
Christine Groult
Françoise Barrière
Emmanuelle Gibello

Bonne exploration!

Papy Oli

#217
Just a few disorganised thoughts on the last few posts before we go back to some happy listening:

Once I established my initial list from the composers index and the top 10 posts, I did ask fellow members for any suggestions they might have of worthy additions. As it stands, yes, I am personally more than satisfied with the list as it is now and its volume and variety is sufficient for me to explore at this time.

However, whilst i created the thread for a purely personal listening project basis, this is not for me to say strictly what should or should not be posted (within the topic subject that is). Any other recommendations being posted along the way would still be of interest, if not for me necessarily, but for anybody else now or in the future.

Think of it that way:

Take the British Composers thread. It took me 14 years of classical listening to find an entry point and the right listening mind into British composers and at that point, that particular thread was a goldmine to me and I read it two or three times overs as I went along on my discoveries.
It would be hypocritical of me, on the one hand, to be grateful that someone maybe randomly mentioned Cyril Rootham in that British thread's page 5 or 17 (for argument's sake) and, on the other hand, be reluctant that someone will mention Marjorie Dupont-Castagnette in page 31 of this thread here, even if at that point we are listening to Durufle or Josquin Des Prez. Maybe someone somewhere in 10 years time will be eventually incredibly glad to come across Marjorie's name here like I did Rootham's there. 

I made up Marjorie's name but you get my drift.

Madiel is correct in the way that i would ideally prefer the listening element to stay fairly coherent along the way (one composer at  time for me, with maybe two or three tops overlapping as people join in with their listening in their own time). We know this place after all, we can't help threads going off course here and there (like a "normal" discussion after all), the main thing is we enjoy the direction of travel overall.

Thank you again for all your contributions so far.

Anyway, back to listening.

Still on Pierné's chamber music at the moment. More on that later  :)


Olivier

pjme

Très bien!

I enjoy the music of Pierné a lot. the only cd with chamber music I have is this one:


The quintet I find excellent. The sonata will be on my listening list for this afternoon.
However, as with many conductors/composers, the orchestra/orchestration had no secrets for him.
Paysages Franciscains, Les cathédrales (original version with wordless chorus) , the sumptuous cantata l'An mil amply bear witness to his talent. Earlier works (pianoconcerto, Fantaisie-ballet ...) sound less personal to me.

ps Somewhere I have a photograph of Marjorie Dupont-Castagnette... ;D

Madiel

Initial personal impressions of Pierné from a couple of chamber works (violin sonata, piano trio) are: pleasant enough, but not engaging me to any greater degree (like Lalo did. for example).

I'll try some other forms. There's a couple of orchestral albums I can spy.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!