The French Music Exploration thread

[pjme]

As promised, had a go at the Pierné sonata. Solid and very French, thanks to maître César Franck. Inspite of all the finesse and craftmanship, I missed the personal signature/voice I hear in the orchestral works.
The quintet - very Franckian again - allows for more fun, excitement & rhythmical adventure. To me the recordings (1983) sound fresh and natural.

Et voilà!

Marjorie Dupont-Castagnette (1880-1948).

[Papy Oli]

Et voilà!

Marjorie Dupont-Castagnette (1880-1948).

[Papy Oli]

Re Pierné, I only tried his Cydalise some weeks back. Never really got me going, I was just sitting there waiting for something to happen. I'll try it again at the end of his exploration.



I have had several interrupted listens to this chamber music vol.1 :



The violin sonata and the piano quintet did not appeal to me. Some other smaller works did but like Madiel, they are hovering just beyond the lightly pleasant (Serenade in A Major, Berceuse, Caprices, Pastorale, Canzonetta). Not a bad place to be by any means. Pleasant but nicely done. Now on the second half of the 2nd CD.

Vol.2 and other types of work also lined up.

edit: Prelude de concert sur un theme de Purcell & Preludio e fughetta are some fun little pieces.

[pjme]

...his Cydalise some weeks back. Never really got me going, I was just sitting there waiting for something to happen.

...des goûts et des couleurs... I found this on Musicweb:

In pointing out the continual resemblances to Daphnis and Chloe (composed in 1912, just three years before Pierné finished work on the three acts of Cydalise), I fall into the trap of the sage who remarked to Brahms on the close similarity between his tune for the last movement of his first symphony and that of Beethoven's last. Quite rightly, Brahms retorted: 'Any fool can see that!' For this I crave your indulgence: it does at least give you some idea of what to expect. Further, just as the symphonies are of comparable quality with each other, so are these ballets; and just as Brahms's work was essentially his own, so is Pierné's. The booklet doesn't record whether Pierné actually conducted Daphnis in his first years as director of the Concerts Colonne (a post he held 1910-34) but I wouldn't be a bit surprised. Franck, Massenet and Saint-Saëns are quoted as influences here, but the strongest stylistic correspondence (rather than influence) strikes me as being with Szymanowski, especially in the hushed opening for the choir – very King Roger. Once the horn and flute enter however, this pastoral landscape is unmistakably French.

The mise-en-scène is a charming mishmash of archaic characters and settings with the overall character of a pastorale: nymphs, fauns, sultans and sultanas disporting themselves in the gardens of Versailles at some unspecified time. Our hero, Styrax, has a cheeky clarinet motif which proves ingeniously adaptable according to context, whether lovelorn, active or triumphant. But the further into the ballet you go, the more wonderful tunes there are sprinkled around. The climax of Act I's dancing lesson settles with a bump into the a surging melody of which John Williams would be proud. Pierné, however, can afford to be profligate: we hear it, then again, developed to an exultant climax, then abandoned. No matter, there's another just as luscious ten minutes later. Shallon opens up at these moments but he never lingers, and this seems all to the good.

Pierné's orchestra is a large one (including saxophone), exotically used. The ballet within a ballet in Act 2 has a harpsichord tinkling away, normally a mock-Baroque device of some irritation to me, but it is redeemed and complemented by a light and witty orchestral accompaniment.

First recordings have a tendency to sound definitive but the playing here is so rhythmically tight, tempos are so apt and orchestral sound is so French (no matter of its Luxembourgeois origin) that its first prize at MIDEM seems well-deserved. You need be no particular fan of obscure repertoire to enjoy this: and if you do, I suggest going in search of a bargain twofer on Ultima of the Piano Quintet and a biblical (Christmas) cantata, Les Enfants à Bethléem. Each of these has the same capacity to delight a receptive ear as Cydalise, despite the claim of the set on Timpani to house Pierné's 'chef d'oeuvre'.

Peter Quantrill

[Papy Oli]

...des goûts et des couleurs... I found this on Musicweb:

Thank you for this Peter, I'll re-assess it at the end. Maybe, by then, my ear will be more receptive 

[Florestan]

You're OK, Papy. And, Madiel's irritation notwithstanding, my own "little project"

...

the things Florestan [...] like

Okay, Michael, let's settle the matter once and for all.

I have no problem whatsoever with your advocating the music you like; I do have a big problem with how you do it. Each and every post of yours in this respect is smug and condescending; each and every post of yours in this respect implies or states bluntly that anyone who does not like the music you like has a wrong approach to music or is somehow defficient in this respect. You might not be aware of it, you might not want to sound like it --- but the net result is this: your forum persona is like it and you sound like it, ie smug, condescending and smartass-ish.

As for myself, I have found my musical comfort zone long time ago and I mostly stay within its boundaries; I am not ashamed of that and I make no apologies for that. Firstly, it is large enough to keep me busy for the remainder of my life (I will turn 48 next December); secondly, I have no intention whatsoever to waste even a single minute of my precious time on things I know for sure I won't enjoy. I only listen to music which I know will bring me pleasure, enjoyment and happiness. If you have a problem with that, it's exactly your problem, not mine.

Bottom line, you go listen to Eliane Radiguez and I'll go listen to some Chopin or Schubert. To each his own. Raum fuer alle hat die Erde.

[some guy]

This settles nothing, Florestan.

It's a repeat of the same old talking points you always use, with the pernicious perpetuation of extreme, and inaccurate, interpretation as simple fact. Value judgments are not facts. The two things are different. And presenting either of them as the other is simply dishonest.

Far as I can see, you do indeed have a lot of trouble with me advocating the music I like, you have even told me to stop posting the music I like to threads because nobody wants to hear about that crap.

My posts in this regard do not criticize anyone for being wrong or deficient, as such, but for talking about the music I advocate in such consistently, persistently, unapologetically negative ways. If you were really fine with my advocation, without needing, yourself, to listen to anything but Chopin and Schubert and the like, then you would simply not comment about it. Instead, you comment on it all the time, masking your distress about Radigue (no "z") and about that kind of music getting any positive commentary with ad hominim attacks of me.

Here's a quick little reversal of one of your favorite points: I have no problem whatsoever with you (or anyone else) disliking any of the music that I enjoy; I do have a huge problem with how you do it.

[Madiel]

Okay, Michael, let's settle the matter once and for all.

I have no problem whatsoever with your advocating the music you like; I do have a big problem with how you do it. Each and every post of yours in this respect is smug and condescending; each and every post of yours in this respect implies or states bluntly that anyone who does not like the music you like has a wrong approach to music or is somehow defficient in this respect. You might not be aware of it, you might not want to sound like it --- but the net result is this: your forum persona is like it and you sound like it, ie smug, condescending and smartass-ish.

As for myself, I have found my musical comfort zone long time ago and I mostly stay within its boundaries; I am not ashamed of that and I make no apologies for that. Firstly, it is large enough to keep me busy for the remainder of my life (I will turn 48 next December); secondly, I have no intention whatsoever to waste even a single minute of my precious time on things I know for sure I won't enjoy. I only listen to music which I know will bring me pleasure, enjoyment and happiness. If you have a problem with that, it's exactly your problem, not mine.

Bottom line, you go listen to Eliane Radiguez and I'll go listen to some Chopin or Schubert. To each his own. Raum fuer alle hat die Erde.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Honestly, any number of people on this forum manage to post about the music they like without constantly giving the impression that everyone else should be blamed for failing to appreciate it.

I've often tried listening to things that other people are enthusiastic about. But not when there's an air of judgement hanging over how I'm expected to respond.

The instruction to not give up on MYSELF, rather than the music, was the epitome of that. That's a message that my response to the music was wrong and must be fixed.

Trying to characterise that as just plain old advocacy of music like everyone else does is either a complete lack of awareness of tone or disingenuous.

[Florestan]

you have even told me to stop posting the music I like to threads because nobody wants to hear about that crap.

I have never told you anything of the sort. You are a liar and from now on I won't waste my time on you any more. Bye bye.

[pjme]

Dear unhappy musiclovers,

can we continue now?
May I suggest that you use private messages (eventually start a new topic in the back room diner) to ponder over your disputes, differences , controvercies and other troubles?

Yours truly,

Jean-Louis Dupont-Castagnette

[Papy Oli]

Otherwise, we'll have to ask you to argue solely in French in order to remain within the spirit of this thread !! 

Merci mes amours   

[Papy Oli]

From the WAYLT this morning :

Good morning all.

unfortunately, some tracks in each work are truncated to 30 secs samples by Qobuz, so only getting a general feel of thee works for now. Might head off to YT to listen further if interest is picked.

Paysages franciscains is wonderful, reminding of Respighi.

"Paysages franciscains is wonderful, reminding of Respighi."-
Exactly - albeit Respighi in his refined (Fontane) mood.
I like "religious" Pierné aswell. "l'An mil" is " A vast symphonic poem in three parts with a highly-detailed programme, it evokes the terror of the Christian world at the very end of the first millennium, when the prospect of an apocalypse announced in the Holy Scriptures became increasingly oppressive. The choice of this highly symbolic subject had been suggested to him by his friend the painter Luc-Olivier Merson, reputed for his works of mediaeval inspiration." (from the excellent Timpani booklet).
and
"Despite his being neither a fervent churchgoer nor even a devout Catholic, this great success—the work was awarded the Monbinne Prize shortly thereafter — would encourage him to continue in the path of religiosity, resulting in three large frescoes: La Croisade des enfants (1905), Les Enfants à Bethléem (1907) and Saint-François d'Assise (1912)."
La croisade gets very occasionally a performance in the Netherlands and Germany. I attended a performance in Utrecht ca. 40 years ago... Les enfants à Betléem  has a good Erato recording and saint François ( conducted by jean Fournet)can be heard on YT.
I love the use of folksongs or folksong-like melodies, Gregorian chant and ,IMO, splendid orchestration.

L'An Mil is definitely intriguing. Had to go to YT for a full version. That's one work I will have to revisit tomorrow with more attention.
Had a proper listen to Les Paysages Franciscains, mildly interesting but again, sitting there waiting for something to happen. I did get that impression of build up towards the last mvt but it took its sweet time and felt eventually underwhelming. I'll relisten again tomorrow.

[ritter]

For the lighter side of the orchestral Pierné, I'd suggest you explore his suites for Ramuntcho (a stage adaptation of Pierre Loti's novel). Really infectious, but also melancholic at times, infused with Basque rhythms.It's available on YouTube (2 videos, one for each suite), Juanjo Mena's recording on Chandos. I've had this CD for decades, and am very satisfied  with it:

[asin]B000027EMU[/asin]
BTW, the Piano Concerto has one if the most scherzando scherzos in the repertoire. Delightful!

[Irons]

I purchased this LP some time ago out of curiosity. But obviously not curious enough as I have never played it! Think I will have to now as Pierné is such a presence on this thread although not having heard a note of his music.

All album notes are in French which I am unable to read but the titles of works are very Debussy -ish.
 

[pjme]

Good luck.
It was the first Pierné disc I bought (somewhere ca 1981-82). And Dervaux's version of Paysages Franciscains remains my favorite. In most comments one reads that he lacks the genius if Debussy. So be it.
I hear a composer with a personal, sophisticated voice - definitely so in his late works.

[André]

For the lighter side of the orchestral Pierné, I'd suggest you explore his suites for Ramuntcho (a stage adaptation of Pierre Loti's novel). Really infectious, but also melancholic at times, infused with Basque rhythms.It's available on YouTube (2 videos, one for each suite), Juanjo Mena's recording on Chandos. I've had this CD for decades, and am very satisfied  with it:

[asin]B000027EMU[/asin]
BTW, the Piano Concerto has one if the most scherzando scherzos in the repertoire. Delightful!

Despite its ugly cover this is a disc to treasure !

+ 1 regarding Dervaux' contributions (and of d'Indy and Rabaud - it's a 3 disc set worth hunting down).

[Papy Oli]

Quite an ambivalent feeling towards Pierné right now.

I was as good as won over this morning by my second listen to L'An Mil and Cathedrales. Even the Paysages Franciscains were an enjoyable ride compared to the first visit. Definitely a CD worth persevering with.

Just tried the Ramuntcho suite advised above and i am back to that nice-but-flat-and-boring-wait-something-might-happen-but-doesn't impression again (the overture was only a sample but the rest full tracks).

then i get bowled over by the second mvt of the Piano Cto. Not the 3rd. Ah well.

[ritter]

Quite an ambivalent feeling towards Pierné right now.

I was as good as won over this morning by my second listen to L'An Mil and Cathedrales. Even the Paysages Franciscains were an enjoyable ride compared to the first visit. Definitely a CD worth persevering with.

Just tried the Ramuntcho suite advised above and i am back to that nice-but-flat-and-boring-wait-something-might-happen-but-doesn't impression again (the overture was only a sample but the rest full tracks).

then i get bowled over by the second mvt of the Piano Cto. Not the 3rd. Ah well.

Indeed, the scherzo (2nd movement) of the Piano Concerto is quite something, The rest of the work, though, says rather little (to me at least).

[Irons]

Quite an ambivalent feeling towards Pierné right now.

I was as good as won over this morning by my second listen to L'An Mil and Cathedrales. Even the Paysages Franciscains were an enjoyable ride compared to the first visit. Definitely a CD worth persevering with.

Just tried the Ramuntcho suite advised above and i am back to that nice-but-flat-and-boring-wait-something-might-happen-but-doesn't impression again (the overture was only a sample but the rest full tracks).

then i get bowled over by the second mvt of the Piano Cto. Not the 3rd. Ah well.

Only going on the album I posted above I am inclined to agree, Olivier. Admittedly distracted by the closing of the EPL transfer window but I did lose interest.

[pjme]

Quite an ambivalent feeling towards Pierné right now...
.... i am back to that nice-but-flat-and-boring-wait-something-might-happen-but-doesn't impression again...

Très bien, entendu. My beloved Pierné is not your glass of kir Royal.
I look forward to where La Musique will bring you.