The French Music Exploration thread

Started by Papy Oli, September 14, 2020, 03:17:20 AM

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Papy Oli

#240
Quote from: pjme on October 06, 2020, 11:34:18 AM
Très bien, entendu. My beloved Pierné is not your glass of kir Royal.
I look forward to where La Musique will bring you.

oh but it still is a quite pleasant dessert wine to me ;) One you can enjoy happily, albeit every now and then and in smaller doses  0:)

I am definitely not dismissing him altogether. The L'An Mil CD has been saved in favourites. I'll revisit it later on and ponder if it's worthy of a purchase for me.

Trying his melodies & songs right now. Again, not necessarily something I would listen for a full CD length but for a few songs, it's definitely ok. Not sure about the female singing on this (find it a little bit grating  :-[  - edit: maybe not the right word but a bit too "operatic" for me, the male voice and songs hit the mark more for my tastes) Still, another little step in the right direction for me and French songs (after Hahn's major step).

Paging Madiel, have you tried those ?



Olivier

Madiel

I believe I did very briefly try that album, yes. Or at least looked at it... I haven't really been motivated to try any more Pierné since the day I was trying bits and pieces without anything really registering. I've got quite enough exploration to be going on with and will happily rejoin you with whoever the next French composer is. I don't want to count how many different chronological explorations of composers I'm currently running through because the answer might terrify me.  :laugh:
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Papy Oli

#242
Quote from: Madiel on October 07, 2020, 02:02:00 AM
I believe I did very briefly try that album, yes. Or at least looked at it... I haven't really been motivated to try any more Pierné since the day I was trying bits and pieces without anything really registering. I've got quite enough exploration to be going on with and will happily rejoin you with whoever the next French composer is. I don't want to count how many different chronological explorations of composers I'm currently running through because the answer might terrify me.  :laugh:

Fair enough!  :laugh: Closing the loop with this one again.



Slight improvement on the first visit, managed the full first act. Now being familiar with his sound, this one made more sense, but again, some very "nice bits" but not hitting the spot in the right way throughout.

Slightly off topic, re your chronological exploration projects, which benefits have you drawn from such approach, besides I assume the daily variety to have several on the go (Debussy, Faure, Mozart, Bartok at least by the looks of it ?) ? I assume being musically trained will be a element to pick up on any sort of compositional progression ? 
Olivier

Madiel

#243
Quote from: Papy Oli on October 07, 2020, 02:25:21 AM
Slightly off topic, re your chronological exploration projects, which benefits have you drawn from such approach, besides I assume the daily variety to have several on the go (Debussy, Faure, Mozart, Bartok at least by the looks of it ?) ? I assume being musically trained will be a element to pick up on any sort of compositional progression ?

I don't know that musical training really makes any difference, no. After all in most cases I'm just listening like anyone else would, not studying scores or anything like that.

I just think it makes sense because this is how people in the right time and place would have come across the music and heard it change, in exactly the same way that I hear my favourite pop music artists change as they release new albums (and I much prefer artists that change, not ones that just keep trying to repeat a hit album). You hear new material and your chief reference point is what you've heard from the same composer previously.

And I certainly do hear, with many composers, the gradual shifts in style over time. I guess it's partly just that I like an element of mental organisation. It's not as if I keep track in my head of the exact dates of composition or first performance, but I do retain some notion of whether I'm listening to early, middle or late works and an awareness of how this makes a difference to what I'm hearing.

But more than anything, the process of doing the exploration is often about giving myself a much better picture of what a composer actually wrote - I don't like just retreading over the same most famous pieces or types of music over and over. For composers that I particularly like, my CD collection tends to expand a lot afterwards.

Also... I do think a lot of composers get better as they get older, and so if you're going chronologically the experience keeps improving!
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

pjme

#244
"Closing the loop with this one again" - I have some photographs of the world premiere performance in 1923:

Acte 2: Un coin des parterres de Versailles - Somewhere in the gardens of Versailles

pjme

#245
Cydalise 1923

Acte 1 : Le parc de Versailles.
Un bassin dans le fond. Une grotte de rocaille. De grands vases de marbre. Une statue de l'Amour, bandant son arc, a demi recouverte de lierre. C'est la nuit.
A pond in the background. A rockery cave. Large marble vases. A statue of Love, bending its bow, half covered with ivy. It's night.
Acte 2 / 3ème tableau: Les greniers de Versailles, ou l'on a improvisé une installation pour Cydalise. Large fenêtre au fond, ouvrant sur le parc. Oeils-de-boeuf. Lucarnes.
The attics of Versailles, with an improvised room for Cydalise. Large window at the back, opening onto the park.
Bull's-eye windows. Skylights.


pjme


Papy Oli

Interesting, thank you Madiel. Enjoy the journey(s) !!  ;D

Thank you for the pictures, Peter !

Next French pick, 2 birds with one stone : Léonin and Pérontin, with this one off my shelves :



As I mentioned in the WAYLT thread, I bought this among my first few classical CDs 14-15 years ago, solely on the basis of the name Notre Dame appearing on the cover, with no idea of the work or composers. Not one I have listened to often (3-4 times tops), and even if choral /mass music has not been my cup of tea in the last 2-3 years, it has been a rewarding listen with fresh ears.

Had a wander on Qobuz and they have those as well for me to have a go at:



I might extend to this twofer as well as it includes some Machaut and De Vitry too, which were also recommended and in the list:

Olivier

some guy

Quote from: Papy Oli on October 07, 2020, 02:25:21 AM
...not hitting the spot in the right way throughout.
A lot of people really, really hate to hear this, but "oh, well": the easiest and most efficient way to address this situation is to make your "spot" larger.

Madiel

#249
The easiest and most efficient way is actually to move on and try some other music, instead of spending your life determined to like things that you don't like. It's not as if there isn't enough other music to try.

But hey, maybe you could spend some time exploring things you're unfamiliar with instead of just watching everyone else? Try Christine and the Queens. She's French.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

some guy

The quickest way to dislike something is to dislike it before you've heard it.

The most efficient way to ensure that music will not "hit the spot" is to make the spot as small as possible.

Madiel

Quote from: some guy on October 07, 2020, 06:28:20 PM
The quickest way to dislike something is to dislike it before you've heard it.

Are you refusing to try Christine and the Queens, then?
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Papy Oli

Quote from: some guy on October 07, 2020, 08:27:13 AM
A lot of people really, really hate to hear this, but "oh, well": the easiest and most efficient way to address this situation is to make your "spot" larger.

Quote from: some guy on October 07, 2020, 06:28:20 PM
The quickest way to dislike something is to dislike it before you've heard it.
The most efficient way to ensure that music will not "hit the spot" is to make the spot as small as possible.

The whole point of this project is for me to find new spots or re-assess some particular spots that i have struggled with. I am really not bothered about the size of the spot or I approach the size of a spot. I just go by how a work makes me feel, the reactions it gives me.

I have had oysters once, hated the taste and made me physically ill. I did try them first then I didn't like them. Just because oysters is a delicacy for some, I am not going to stuff my face repeatedly with oysters until such time I force myself to like it. What's the point in this. That decision is based on my tastes, not a reflection on oysters. Feel free to call it my shortcoming if you will.   

I love sticky toffee pudding. It took me a long while to love sticky toffee pudding. Such puddings along the way never convinced me until such time I found a particular serving that really hit the spot. Over time, sticky toffee pudding became my favourite dessert and it takes something quite special to displace chocolate-based desserts in my books. Just because I love sticky toffee puddings, it doesn't mean however that I will have all the sticky toffee puddings available, nor do I want to have sticky toffee pudding all the time.

I only ever had nibbles of ginger bread in the past, that alone didn't convince me at all on ginger. Until one day I had a slice of ginger cake made by a relative. That convinced me that there might be something to be said about ginger. Now, I am quite a fan of fresh ginger and spring onion chicken, I am a moderate fan of ginger biscuits and I am still not convinced by ginger bread.

Why this food analogy ?

- oysters are Varèse.
- Sticky toffee pudding is Mahler. The ones that really convinced were Bertini and Maazel. The sticky toffee puddings I won't have is No.8.
- Ginger is Pierné. The ginger bread is Cydalise, the ginger cake is some of his chamber music, The ginger biscuits are the Paysages Franciscains, the ginger chicken is l'An Mil.

I am happy (and so should I be) about those particular spots that I have connected with so far and there's absolutely no reason to beat myself up about the ginger bread and definitely not about the oysters. I just move on and explore another spot. I am personally more concerned in the frame of this little project with finding (or connecting with) suitably-sized sweet spots that appeal to me rather than desperately hunting larger ones which, upon my own inspection and reactions, will not (at that time). That doesn't exclude at all me revisiting the latter at a later stage either.

Bon Appétit  :)
Olivier

Papy Oli

One man's chitterlings is another man's andouillette.

Christine and the Queens is like chitterlings for me. I'd rather have Andouillette  :laugh:

There's room for both in this world though and i wouldn't force andouillette on anyone...  >:D

Feeling peckish now...  8)
Olivier

Madiel

I just had dinner...

I tried that Naxos Léonin/Pérotin album earlier today. The chant I didn't mind, but the organum ended up annoying me.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Papy Oli

I see what you mean. I was ok with the organum on the Naxos one as they are quite short.

I just listened to the one below and a couple of organum are 7-15 min long. A bit too long and tedious eventually.

On the other hand, Salvatoris Hodie and Beate Viscera are absolutely gorgeous pieces.

Olivier

Florestan

Quote from: Papy Oli on October 08, 2020, 12:41:51 AM
The whole point of this project is for me to find new spots or re-assess some particular spots that i have struggled with. I am really not bothered about the size of the spot or I approach the size of a spot. I just go by how a work makes me feel, the reactions it gives me.

I have had oysters once, hated the taste and made me physically ill. I did try them first then I didn't like them. Just because oysters is a delicacy for some, I am not going to stuff my face repeatedly with oysters until such time I force myself to like it. What's the point in this. That decision is based on my tastes, not a reflection on oysters. Feel free to call it my shortcoming if you will.   

I love sticky toffee pudding. It took me a long while to love sticky toffee pudding. Such puddings along the way never convinced me until such time I found a particular serving that really hit the spot. Over time, sticky toffee pudding became my favourite dessert and it takes something quite special to displace chocolate-based desserts in my books. Just because I love sticky toffee puddings, it doesn't mean however that I will have all the sticky toffee puddings available, nor do I want to have sticky toffee pudding all the time.

I only ever had nibbles of ginger bread in the past, that alone didn't convince me at all on ginger. Until one day I had a slice of ginger cake made by a relative. That convinced me that there might be something to be said about ginger. Now, I am quite a fan of fresh ginger and spring onion chicken, I am a moderate fan of ginger biscuits and I am still not convinced by ginger bread.

Why this food analogy ?

- oysters are Varèse.
- Sticky toffee pudding is Mahler. The ones that really convinced were Bertini and Maazel. The sticky toffee puddings I won't have is No.8.
- Ginger is Pierné. The ginger bread is Cydalise, the ginger cake is some of his chamber music, The ginger biscuits are the Paysages Franciscains, the ginger chicken is l'An Mil.

I am happy (and so should I be) about those particular spots that I have connected with so far and there's absolutely no reason to beat myself up about the ginger bread and definitely not about the oysters. I just move on and explore another spot. I am personally more concerned in the frame of this little project with finding (or connecting with) suitably-sized sweet spots that appeal to me rather than desperately hunting larger ones which, upon my own inspection and reactions, will not (at that time). That doesn't exclude at all me revisiting the latter at a later stage either.

Bon Appétit  :)

Excellent post, Olivier!

For the life of me I cannot understand why some people are so deeply concerned with other people's listening habits and waste no opportunity to criticize them for not being in line with their own and to try modifying them according to their own. Looks like such people simply cannot enjoy their favorite music unless and until everybody else enjoys it.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

pjme


I'm not into her kind of 'noise" music. But this little portrait is charming, clarifying & interesting.
And I'm sure her poule-au-pot and clafoutis aux cerises are fabulous!

https://www.youtube.com/v/D2U0q4lZiFg

Le petit Frantz - https://www.youtube.com/user/LeptitFrantz1/featured - has quite a good collection of rare French music - mostly in old, historical radio recordings.
Anyway, since Louis Aubert is featured in Papy Oli's list, I dare to suggest his symphonic poem "Les saisons", a work for mezzo, chorus, organ and orchestra.
https://youtu.be/OPEYSksCJUo
The use of a wordless chorus is since Puccini, Ravel, Debussy, Pierné, RVW, Holst and countless film composers a trusted and (overly) "effective" magical effect . Louis Aubert goes blissfully over the top in this big (25 mins.) sweltering and extatic Pavlova/croquembouche/Ile flottante , composed in 1937. Could it be sticky toffee?
Don't eat anything else...

Madiel

Quote from: Papy Oli on October 08, 2020, 02:01:21 AM
I see what you mean. I was ok with the organum on the Naxos one as they are quite short.

I just listened to the one below and a couple of organum are 7-15 min long. A bit too long and tedious eventually.

On the other hand, Salvatoris Hodie and Beate Viscera are absolutely gorgeous pieces.



I just tried Salvatoris Hodie - it appears to be the same recording though with a different cover - and yes I quite liked it. Though I did find it went on a bit longer than my enjoyment.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Papy Oli on October 08, 2020, 12:41:51 AM
The whole point of this project is for me to find new spots or re-assess some particular spots that i have struggled with. I am really not bothered about the size of the spot or I approach the size of a spot. I just go by how a work makes me feel, the reactions it gives me.

I have had oysters once, hated the taste and made me physically ill. I did try them first then I didn't like them. Just because oysters is a delicacy for some, I am not going to stuff my face repeatedly with oysters until such time I force myself to like it. What's the point in this. That decision is based on my tastes, not a reflection on oysters. Feel free to call it my shortcoming if you will.   

I love sticky toffee pudding. It took me a long while to love sticky toffee pudding. Such puddings along the way never convinced me until such time I found a particular serving that really hit the spot. Over time, sticky toffee pudding became my favourite dessert and it takes something quite special to displace chocolate-based desserts in my books. Just because I love sticky toffee puddings, it doesn't mean however that I will have all the sticky toffee puddings available, nor do I want to have sticky toffee pudding all the time.

I only ever had nibbles of ginger bread in the past, that alone didn't convince me at all on ginger. Until one day I had a slice of ginger cake made by a relative. That convinced me that there might be something to be said about ginger. Now, I am quite a fan of fresh ginger and spring onion chicken, I am a moderate fan of ginger biscuits and I am still not convinced by ginger bread.

Why this food analogy ?

- oysters are Varèse.
- Sticky toffee pudding is Mahler. The ones that really convinced were Bertini and Maazel. The sticky toffee puddings I won't have is No.8.
- Ginger is Pierné. The ginger bread is Cydalise, the ginger cake is some of his chamber music, The ginger biscuits are the Paysages Franciscains, the ginger chicken is l'An Mil.

I am happy (and so should I be) about those particular spots that I have connected with so far and there's absolutely no reason to beat myself up about the ginger bread and definitely not about the oysters. I just move on and explore another spot. I am personally more concerned in the frame of this little project with finding (or connecting with) suitably-sized sweet spots that appeal to me rather than desperately hunting larger ones which, upon my own inspection and reactions, will not (at that time). That doesn't exclude at all me revisiting the latter at a later stage either.

Bon Appétit  :)

Great post!  I am sure we all could substitute our own composers for your oysters, sticky toffee pudding and ginger bread!  But what would your comfort food/composer/piece of music from childhood be??!!

mine would be:  homemade treacle sponge = Malcolm Arnold (specifically Tam O'Shanter) which was my 1st "favourite" piece on the 1st LP of my own that I bought......