USA Politics (redux)

[Jo498]

Which totalitarian measures?

Shutting down almost everything for months or a year because of a flu? Extending state of emergency? Forcing people to get a dubious vaccination (that would never have been admitted by the agencies 5 years ago) or lose their jobs. And so on, on the flimsiest of pretexts. All stuff we have not had in the West since the 1940s...
You certainly know what I am referring to. I guess you are fine with it and what one likes cannot be totalitarian...

[Karl Henning]

Shutting down almost everything for months or a year because of a flu? Extending state of emergency? Forcing people to get a dubious vaccination (that would never have been admitted by the agencies 5 years ago) or lose their jobs. And so on, on the flimsiest of pretexts. All stuff we have not had in the West since the 1940s...
You certainly know what I am referring to. I guess you are fine with it and what one likes cannot be totalitarian...

a flu? Well, you've gauged yourself there.

[Jo498]

I'm asking the same. Some people have funny ideas about totalitarian measures. Mask mandates and lockdowns in the middle of the worst pandemic in 100 years are totalitarian measures? Really? I call it common sense. Should we have let the pandemic run wild filling hospitals of patients causing the collapse of the healthcare system?

In Germany there was never even the slightest danger of a collapse. (And even if there was such a danger, there would have been other preventive measures that would not take away fundamental liberties.) The Cov patients were on average low single digit percentages of the patient in hospitals here.
Overall the stats now show very little differences in mortality both to bad flu years (like 2017/18, I think) and also very little differences between countries/regions with draconian and countries with lax measures.

People die, that's a fact of life. There are some moderate measures like masks or washing hands (as well as all kinds of recommendationd or voluntary measures) that can be acceptable. But not shutting down businesses, forcing people to vaccinate, letting them lose their jobs etc. Not with a disease barely deadlier than the flu (if at all).

Until yesterday the media would have been outraged at higher insurance fees for fat people or motorcyclists or any other measures to reduce risks or healthcare costs. We all understood that there were risks involved in almost everything we did. (I remember well how media made fun of people being afraid of terror attacks after 2001 or any of the other incidents in the last 20 years by quoting stats that more people died doing domestic chores than from terror attacks.) Now people are employing literally Nazi phrases to exclude the "unvaccinated" or threaten that they would not be treated. It's overall the most disgusting and outrageous thing I have witnessed in almost 50 years of life.

If you don't see that how easily the whole world has slipped into panic mode and people agreed to all kind of silly measures is the most ominous thing wrt personal freedom that happened in the West since many decades and that a buffoon like Trump is a "danger to democracy" you are deluded. If you think the totalitarians are easy to spot because of the jackboots and funny uniforms, they will not do us such a favor.

[Jo498]

a flu? Well, you've gauged yourself there.

The danger and deadliness of Covid is roughly in the same order of magnitude as the flu (the flu is quite dangerous to the same frail or old people Cov is dangerous for). Twice as dangerous is still the same order of magnitude. But even 10 times as dangerous would hardly have justified the measures we had in many countries.
With the same arguments one could enforce a speed limit of 30 mph everywhere. Certainly fewer people would die. But it would also become silly to have powerful cars being able to do 75 mph.

[greg]

The US for me is just a rich third World country with third World country problems.

This is an interesting take. Earlier in the thread, it was referred to as a third World country (which I totally disagree with), but saying it is a rich third World country is a bit more of a nuanced, original interpretation. Either that, or a totally retarded one. 

To me it's a first world country with an unfortunate class gap. Maybe it isn't first world any more, idk, but the decades before the great recession I'd definitely say it's first world because anyone who isn't a total screwup could "make it." Nowadays, not so much.

And just from my observations, there's two really significant things that explains why the US has higher poverty rates- 1) lack of social support- in our culture, it's common for parents to kick kids out of the house at the age of 18 and never help them. 2) drug addiction, large supply of drugs everywhere

There's also a lot of really dumb people... I mean, if you were actually growing up around these people, you'd see why they could never make it, the problem is entirely themselves. They're just losers, I've been around kids in school that openly said they get in trouble with the police for fun and feel like they are destined for prison. In that case, you can't blame the US for not supporting them. Is that rare in Finland?

[71 dB]

Shutting down almost everything for months or a year because of a flu? Extending state of emergency? Forcing people to get a dubious vaccination (that would never have been admitted by the agencies 5 years ago) or lose their jobs. And so on, on the flimsiest of pretexts. All stuff we have not had in the West since the 1940s...
You certainly know what I am referring to. I guess you are fine with it and what one likes cannot be totalitarian...

According to the CDC, flu-related deaths between the years of 1986 and 2007 ranged from 3,000 to 49,000. Since 2010, the flu-related death rate has been between 12,000 and 61,000 annually, with the highest season being 2017–2018 and the lowest being 2011–2012.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/deaths-from-flu-2633829

Covid-19 related deaths have been one or two order of magnitudes bigger in the US compared to flu. Until a year ago there was no vaccines against Covid-19 which has cause significantly larger burden on the healthcare system than flu does. That's why the measures against Covid-19. The vaccines are not "dubious". They were tested and now approved. We have also seen how the vaccines work: They reduce the risk of getting Covid by a factor of 2, the risk of hospitalization by factor of 10+ and risk of dying of Covid by factor of 7. The side effects of the vaccines (sore arm for a couple or days, maybe some fever etc.) are a small price to pay for the protection. We haven't had a pandemic like this in 100 years. That's the reason why we have not seen this stuff since 1940's.

[krummholz]

The danger and deadliness of Covid is roughly in the same order of magnitude as the flu (the flu is quite dangerous to the same frail or old people Cov is dangerous for).

Do you have a source for that? The WHO estimates that the mortality rate of COVID is 10 times or more greater than that of most strains of influenza. So, perhaps one order of magnitude greater.

Of course, if you put everything on a logarithmic scale, then it doesn't seem so much worse - ONLY one order of magnitude, not two or three or four.

But even 10 times as dangerous would hardly have justified the measures we had in many countries.
With the same arguments one could enforce a speed limit of 30 mph everywhere. Certainly fewer people would die. But it would also become silly to have powerful cars being able to do 75 mph.

To me the difference is between risks that I take for myself, and those that I take that endanger other people. I like to fly a small airplane, which is risky to me, but the risk to other people is extremely small - much less than the risk I pose to others when driving a car, if I go substantially over the speed limit. People infected with SARS-CoV-2 pose a significant risk to other people, hence it's justified to impose a mandatory quarantine. I tend to agree with you about closing down businesses on a massive scale, but mostly because the way it has been done in the West is not very effective: partial lockdowns over a period of months do more to damage the economy than they do to slow the spread of the virus. But that's a practical issue, since the way it was handled in totalitarian countries like the PRC was much more effective, and therefore, IMO, more justifiable. I have no trouble with saying that public health during a pandemic should trump individual freedom. And I am pretty strongly libertarian on most issues.

[71 dB]

This is an interesting take. Earlier in the thread, it was referred to as a third World country (which I totally disagree with), but saying it is a rich third World country is a bit more of a nuanced, original interpretation. Either that, or a totally retarded one. 

I think I have been consistent on this front. The US is certainly a rich country, in fact the richest country in the World I believe unless China has gone past it.

To me it's a first world country with an unfortunate class gap. Maybe it isn't first world any more, idk, but the decades before the great recession I'd definitely say it's first world because anyone who isn't a total screwup could "make it." Nowadays, not so much.

Yes, things might have been different in the past, but I am talking about what the country is today. For all the richness the US takes astonishingly poor care of its people apart from the top 1 %, but that is the case for any third World country. The rich people in Banana Republics do phenomenally well even if regular people live in poverty.

And just from my observations, there's two really significant things that explains why the US has higher poverty rates- 1) lack of social support- in our culture, it's common for parents to kick kids out of the house at the age of 18 and never help them. 2) drug addiction, large supply of drugs everywhere

Those are some of the reasons, but not all of them. Cost of education is one reason. Low minimum wages are another. Medical bills are one danger.

There's also a lot of really dumb people... I mean, if you were actually growing up around these people, you'd see why they could never make it, the problem is entirely themselves. They're just losers, I've been around kids in school that openly said they get in trouble with the police for fun and feel like they are destined for prison. In that case, you can't blame the US for not supporting them. Is that rare in Finland?

Stupid kids are everywhere in the World, but in some countries the society at least tries to help them to manage in life. In the US prisons are for the big part business so locking these kids up is profitable. In Finland locking people in prisons is seen as a burden to the society. The goal is to prison people for as short time as possible and instead try to help them to rehabilitate and become productive members of society. The problem of the US as a society is that it doesn't recognise the human dignity in everyone. Billionaires are worshipped while there is disdain for poor people and those who have made unfortunate choices in life. That is a bad foundation for having a first World country. 

Here is a link to a Youtube video about prisons in Finland: https://youtu.be/l554kV12Wuo

[SimonNZ]

Shutting down almost everything for months or a year because of a flu? Extending state of emergency? Forcing people to get a dubious vaccination (that would never have been admitted by the agencies 5 years ago) or lose their jobs. And so on, on the flimsiest of pretexts. All stuff we have not had in the West since the 1940s...
You certainly know what I am referring to. I guess you are fine with it and what one likes cannot be totalitarian...

I was hoping when I asked that you would say something unexpected from an angle I hadn't considered. But this stuff was debated and done with over a year ago.

Can I ask what you think of Trump's more laissez-faire handling of the pandemic?

With the same arguments one could enforce a speed limit of 30 mph everywhere. Certainly fewer people would die. But it would also become silly to have powerful cars being able to do 75 mph.

I'll wager that back in the day when the speed limit actually was 30mph there were far more road deaths per percentage of drivers than at 75mph now, as cars had far less efficient steering, braking and in-built safety design.

And there were far fewer *rules*. Rules about requirements for getting a licence and rules about what you can and cant do on the road.

Was this vast proliferation of rules and regulations also Totalitarian, or do they mean you now have the *freedom* to travel at 75mph with much less likelihood of harming your fellow travelers and yourself?

[JBS]

I think I have been consistent on this front. The US is certainly a rich country, in fact the richest country in the World I believe unless China has gone past it.

Yes, things might have been different in the past, but I am talking about what the country is today. For all the richness the US takes astonishingly poor care of its people apart from the top 1 %, but that is the case for any third World country. The rich people in Banana Republics do phenomenally well even if regular people live in poverty.

Those are some of the reasons, but not all of them. Cost of education is one reason. Low minimum wages are another. Medical bills are one danger.

Stupid kids are everywhere in the World, but in some countries the society at least tries to help them to manage in life. In the US prisons are for the big part business so locking these kids up is profitable. In Finland locking people in prisons is seen as a burden to the society. The goal is to prison people for as short time as possible and instead try to help them to rehabilitate and become productive members of society. The problem of the US as a society is that it doesn't recognise the human dignity in everyone. Billionaires are worshipped while there is disdain for poor people and those who have made unfortunate choices in life. That is a bad foundation for having a first World country. 

Here is a link to a Youtube video about prisons in Finland: https://youtu.be/l554kV12Wuo

Poju, have you ever been to a Third World country? Third World countries have widespread systemic poverty in which great masses of their population are immured.  Poverty in the US is not like that. There are poor people but not as great a percentage of the population, and for even the poorest of them it's not as desperate as it is in the Third World.  There are not great slums in the US in which everyone has mud floors, sporadic electricity, and no idea of where tomorrow's meals will come from. To put US poverty in the same category as Third World poverty is an insult to the suffering of the Third World's poor.

[milk]

Poju, have you ever been to a Third World country? Third World countries have widespread systemic poverty in which great masses of their population are immured.  Poverty in the US is not like that. There are poor people but not as great a percentage of the population, and for even the poorest of them it's not as desperate as it is in the Third World.  There are not great slums in the US in which everyone has mud floors, sporadic electricity, and no idea of where tomorrow's meals will come from. To put US poverty in the same category as Third World poverty is an insult to the suffering of the Third World's poor.

I saved my money and went to India when I was 26. I had never been outside the U.S. I remember clearly the taxi ride from the airport to the hotel. I was in such shock. It took me three days to get over the shock. I almost turned around and went back that very day.

[Karl Henning]

I saved my money and went to India when I was 26. I had never been outside the U.S. I remember clearly the taxi ride from the airport to the hotel. I was in such shock. It took me three days to get over the shock. I almost turned around and went back that very day.

I can well believe it.

[71 dB]

Poju, have you ever been to a Third World country? Third World countries have widespread systemic poverty in which great masses of their population are immured.  Poverty in the US is not like that. There are poor people but not as great a percentage of the population, and for even the poorest of them it's not as desperate as it is in the Third World.  There are not great slums in the US in which everyone has mud floors, sporadic electricity, and no idea of where tomorrow's meals will come from. To put US poverty in the same category as Third World poverty is an insult to the suffering of the Third World's poor.

No, I haven't.

The US as a third World country is a special case and people tend to mistake it as a First World country for this reason, even I did up until recently after having seen how "hopeless" country we are talking about. The US is TOTALLY different third World country than say Ethiopia. The latter is a very poor country while the US is the richest country in the World, but intellectually bankrupt as a society. What happened on January 6th doesn't happen in first World countries. In Alabama many don't have proper sewage systems and due to that have worms (luckily there is ivermectin for that  ). People don't have worms in first World countries. In first World countries the quality of tap water is strictly regulated. This is not the case in many places in the US, but to be fair, Mexico has even worse tap water quality as far as I know. Last winter Texas suffered massive power shortages, because of the lack of regulation. That's not maybe as bad as electrity in Ethiopia, but is certainly isn't first World level either. The US is a third World country because it operates under corporate rule. There is two kinds of poverty: Absolute poverty and relative poverty. The US has a huge relative poverty problem.

[71 dB]

I saved my money and went to India when I was 26. I had never been outside the U.S. I remember clearly the taxi ride from the airport to the hotel. I was in such shock. It took me three days to get over the shock. I almost turned around and went back that very day.

I was traumatized by a taxi ride in Naples.  Italians have an interesting attitude when it comes to traffic rules.

[greg]

I saved my money and went to India when I was 26. I had never been outside the U.S. I remember clearly the taxi ride from the airport to the hotel. I was in such shock. It took me three days to get over the shock. I almost turned around and went back that very day.

Anyone interested needs to check out bald and bankrupt's channel, many great India videos like what the slums look like in India (in this one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJy5njInoc

Though mostly he is known for his awesome eastern Europe/ex-Soviet tourism, videos which are quite unlike anything I've seen before.

I was traumatized by a taxi ride in Naples.  Italians have an interesting attitude when it comes to traffic rules.

Lol I used to work with someone that said exactly the same thing, never will he take a taxi in Italy again.

Those are some of the reasons, but not all of them. Cost of education is one reason. Low minimum wages are another. Medical bills are one danger.

True.

Stupid kids are everywhere in the World, but in some countries the society at least tries to help them to manage in life.

It should be the parents that help the most, but we also have a problem with many kids growing up without a dad. So not exactly a great start emotionally, mentally, or financially for them. When that fails, society can help- you need some sort of safety net for everyone. But that's also a financial burden on society as a whole...

The goal is to prison people for as short time as possible and instead try to help them to rehabilitate and become productive members of society.

This may work for many, and is a good overall approach... but it would have some limitations. There's people out there who are hopeless... with psychopathy they have an irregular brain that will never change, if they can get away with something, they'll always try because they completely lack fear and at the same time are too enticed by rewards. IMO a good system would be able to distinguish the screwups that end up in prison because they just need some guidance vs. the evil people, and treat them differently.

Here is a link to a Youtube video about prisons in Finland: https://youtu.be/l554kV12Wuo

That was interesting, didn't seem so bad at all.

[Herman]

I have been to the US (Florida) only once in 1982 when I was 11 years old. At that time the country seemed a wonderland: Disneyworld, Space Center, Sea World, warm sunny weather, 16 TV channels (Finland had 3 TV channels at that time I think), Pacman everywhere and of course as much Reese's Peanut Butter Cups one can eat! 

Ironic your only IRL encounter with the USA should be Florida.
Why is sixteen channels better than three?

People are stupid and ignorant. We want these dictator wanna-bees in powers. We will loose our freedom and then we must fight for it again. That makes people wiser for 100-300 years and then this cycle will repeat itself. We are that stupid. Better enjoy our freedom while we can. If I am lucky I will be dead before Finland becomes a dictatorship. Finland has very strong democracy. Undoing it will takes decades, I hope... 

It's all very well to fantasize about Game of Throne-like narratives of doom and redemption, but there is not time for even a hundred-year cycle. Look at the Amazon forests (I mean the river, not the retail biz). Give the Americas to venal would be dictators for 25 years and the planet is doomed. Or rather, the human race is. Ten years would probably be a closer number.

[Herman]

The danger and deadliness of Covid is roughly in the same order of magnitude as the flu (the flu is quite dangerous to the same frail or old people Cov is dangerous for). Twice as dangerous is still the same order of magnitude. But even 10 times as dangerous would hardly have justified the measures we had in many countries.

The "it's just a flu" thing is a semantic game. We're used to the word flu.
However, there are different kinds of flu, and especially the newness of Covid  -  meaning no natural immunity  -  was and still is a danger.
There have been over five million dead now, worldwide, and we're still counting. Maybe you think that's not a big deal. One of the reasons why it's not more is exactly the 'totalitarian' measures, such as requiring people to mask up and giving a damn good vaccine.
The vaccine has been consistently labeled "experimental" by superstitious antivaccine people, who do not realise medical science (and indeed all science) has always been experimental. It's another word for progress.
The mRNA vaccine had been in development, in your very backyard, for about 25 years when Covid happened. People talk as if it had been made in a couple of months. That's just not true.
Last time I checked about three billion people had been double vaccinated (various types of vaccine) and if there had been serious side effects to these vaccines we surely would have had millions of vaccine deaths. There have been very few, and I cannot help but notice antivax people have constructed vaccine death registration websites where people can just register their neighbour as a vaccine death even while this same neighbour is out there washing his car.
Similarly it's not true only frail old people die of Covid. That's another piece of antivax propaganda (and I'm not sure what to think of people saying: oh it's just old and vulnerable people dying...) Thirty-year olds die, too.
Do I think some governments have gone overboard in their communication about safety measures. Yes I do.

[Fëanor]

The danger and deadliness of Covid is roughly in the same order of magnitude as the flu (the flu is quite dangerous to the same frail or old people Cov is dangerous for). Twice as dangerous is still the same order of magnitude. But even 10 times as dangerous would hardly have justified the measures we had in many countries.
With the same arguments one could enforce a speed limit of 30 mph everywhere. Certainly fewer people would die. But it would also become silly to have powerful cars being able to do 75 mph.

I'm going to join the chorus here as say that you assessment is just wrong.  Covid-19 might not be 10x more lethal than seasonal flu but it is 3-5x more lethal.  Also experience shows that Covid patients are far more likely to end up in ICUs;  over-capacity ICU has been a problem in many localities where flu has not.  Then too there is the issue with "long Covid" that doesn't exist with seasonal flu.  Yet another factor is that Covid can be spread over a couple of weeks by people who are asymptomatic.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2766121

As for car deaths, well, vehicle crashes aren't contagious.  USA motor vehicle deaths have run about 38k where as Covid deaths have run over 600k in a year and a half, so there is no comparison -- which isn't to say that lower maximum speeds wouldn't be safer and help the environment.

[Spotted Horses]

I'm going to join the chorus here as say that you assessment is just wrong.  Covid-19 might not be 10x more lethal than seasonal flu but it is 3-5x more lethal.  Also experience shows that Covid patients are far more likely to end up in ICUs;  over-capacity ICU has been a problem in many localities where flu has not.  Then too there is the issue with "long Covid" that doesn't exist with seasonal flu.  Yet another factor is that Covid can be spread over a couple of weeks by people who are asymptomatic.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2766121

As for car deaths, well, vehicle crashes aren't contagious.  USA motor vehicle deaths have run about 38k where as Covid deaths have run over 600k in a year and a half, so there is no comparison -- which isn't to say that lower maximum speeds wouldn't be safer and help the environment.

Actually, I believe it is fair to say it is 30 times more lethal, 10 times higher fatality rate, 3 times higher rate of spread. In the U.S. the seasonal flu kills 60,000 people in a bad year. Covid-19 has killed about 850,000, and that is with strong social distancing, shutdowns, remote work, and more than half the country having received a highly effective vaccine.

[71 dB]

Ironic your only IRL encounter with the USA should be Florida.
Why is sixteen channels better than three?

Why is Florida ironic? My uncle worked for Nokia and had a secondment in Florida for a few years. He and his family invited my family to stay with them in Florida. I didn't have to deal with crazy anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers because that lunacy became a thing almost 4 decades later. Even the Republicans were much more rational back then. The country was only 6 years into legalized bribery (Buckley v. Valeo in 1976). It wasn't that bad back then and an 11-years old boy from Europe certainly didn't see whatever bad there was. I was busy/happy eating Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. 

Obviously 11 year old me thought more channels is better, 16 channels is 5.33.. times better than 3. Now that I have dozens of channels myself in Finland have I learned that more is less: What they show on those channels is complete junk most of the time.

It's all very well to fantasize about Game of Throne-like narratives of doom and redemption, but there is not time for even a hundred-year cycle. Look at the Amazon forests (I mean the river, not the retail biz). Give the Americas to venal would be dictators for 25 years and the planet is doomed. Or rather, the human race is. Ten years would probably be a closer number.

Yeah. President Sinema and VP Manchin are making sure the planet and humanity won't have it easy. All we can hope is the progressives are willing to shoot the hostage (the bipartisan bill), but it looks very bad...