Author Topic: USA Politics (redux)  (Read 157345 times)

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Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3300 on: December 02, 2021, 03:05:21 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/12/mel-gibson-anti-semitism/620873/
Cancel Mel Gibson
Why is Hollywood still hiring this raging anti-Semite?

The dude from West Wing wrote this: Joshua Malina.

I think the discussion of “cancel culture” is impoverished. The people, like me, who worry there is a “there” there, aren’t saying it’s OK to use slurs and express bigotry against anyone or that people haven’t legitimately been affected when they transgressed. Anyway, I see what Malina is saying. There’s a difference between saying “Judaism isn’t true” and “Jews run the world.” You’re free to attack the ideas in Judaism, I hope. When Gibson was in the back of a police car in 2006 talking to a Jewish officer, perhaps he should have limited himself to critiquing Talmudic theology. Just saying.

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3301 on: December 02, 2021, 07:58:49 PM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/12/mel-gibson-anti-semitism/620873/
Cancel Mel Gibson
Why is Hollywood still hiring this raging anti-Semite?

The dude from West Wing wrote this: Joshua Malina.

Anyway, I see what Malina is saying. There’s a difference between saying “Judaism isn’t true” and “Jews run the world.” You’re free to attack the ideas in Judaism, I hope.

That's not what Malina is saying. Did you read beyond the headline?

And: "attack"?

Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3302 on: December 03, 2021, 04:32:28 AM »
That's not what Malina is saying. Did you read beyond the headline?

And: "attack"?
That's what I'm saying about the article dude. My opinion is that Malina is right to question why someone that expresses hate directly is being employed this way. I don't think this is what "cancel culture is," which Malina is NOT addressing. I am adding my comment on it. It's true that I wasn't clear but don't be a goof. 

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3303 on: December 03, 2021, 04:52:34 AM »
https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/12/mel-gibson-anti-semitism/620873/
Cancel Mel Gibson
Why is Hollywood still hiring this raging anti-Semite?

The dude from West Wing wrote this: Joshua Malina.

I think the discussion of “cancel culture” is impoverished. The people, like me, who worry there is a “there” there, aren’t saying it’s OK to use slurs and express bigotry against anyone or that people haven’t legitimately been affected when they transgressed. Anyway, I see what Malina is saying. There’s a difference between saying “Judaism isn’t true” and “Jews run the world.” You’re free to attack the ideas in Judaism, I hope. When Gibson was in the back of a police car in 2006 talking to a Jewish officer, perhaps he should have limited himself to critiquing Talmudic theology. Just saying.

Wow!!  Practically speaking, can one criticize Judaism without being anti-Semitic?

Well it might depend on your basis for criticizing Judaism.  If you're saying Judaism is deficient because it doesn't acknowledge Jesus as divine, (i.e. your criticism is based on religious bias), then I suppose it's possible you're a religious bigot without being anti-Semitic.

If you are an atheist, agnostic, or otherwise distain religious doctrine or religious organization, then I suppose you can criticize Judaism but you are likely to criticize most religions at the same time -- maybe others much more than Judaism.

If you are in the second category, above, the Christian religion should probably highest on you bad guy list on account of its heavy emphasis on theological, (trinitarian, Christological), doctrine and the authoritarian organization of the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3304 on: December 03, 2021, 06:37:30 AM »
Wow!!  Practically speaking, can one criticize Judaism without being anti-Semitic?

Well it might depend on your basis for criticizing Judaism.  If you're saying Judaism is deficient because it doesn't acknowledge Jesus as divine, (i.e. your criticism is based on religious bias), then I suppose it's possible you're a religious bigot without being anti-Semitic.

If you are an atheist, agnostic, or otherwise distain religious doctrine or religious organization, then I suppose you can criticize Judaism but you are likely to criticize most religions at the same time -- maybe others much more than Judaism.

If you are in the second category, above, the Christian religion should probably highest on you bad guy list on account of its heavy emphasis on theological, (trinitarian, Christological), doctrine and the authoritarian organization of the Roman Catholic Church.
I'm not really saying so much as any of that. I'm Jewish by background and something like agnostic-atheist. I think Christians generally criticize Judaism on that basis. That's religion. Christian-Jewish dialogue is important as is other dialogues - especially in our post-Shoah world.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't be too sensitive or that people seem oversensitive these days. But not in the case of Mel probably. Unless one buys his apology. I'm all for apology. I used to be a big fan of Elvis Costello when I was in high school. Now, Declan said something very unfortunate when he was coming up. He apologized. No one remembers it. I saw him on Bill Maher when Maher said to him something like, "you've never had any controversy." He was like, "Um..."
Anyway, I don't think "cancel culture" is about this stuff really. I've seen that reality up close and it's a bit different.

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3305 on: December 03, 2021, 07:13:15 AM »
I'm not really saying so much as any of that. I'm Jewish by background and something like agnostic-atheist. I think Christians generally criticize Judaism on that basis. That's religion. Christian-Jewish dialogue is important as is other dialogues - especially in our post-Shoah world.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't be too sensitive or that people seem oversensitive these days. But not in the case of Mel probably. Unless one buys his apology. I'm all for apology. I used to be a big fan of Elvis Costello when I was in high school. Now, Declan said something very unfortunate when he was coming up. He apologized. No one remembers it. I saw him on Bill Maher when Maher said to him something like, "you've never had any controversy." He was like, "Um..."
Anyway, I don't think "cancel culture" is about this stuff really. I've seen that reality up close and it's a bit different.

I should hasten to say the I'm not Jewish nor of Jewish extraction, and I am "something like agnostic-atheist" though I was raised Christian.  And I'll admit I said some "very unfortunate" things in my youth too but they are alien to my present feelings.

The bigger question today is whether one can harshly criticize the state of Israel without being anti-Semitic.  Logically and fairly one can.  However I've known many Jews who don't accept that.  I've known hundreds or probably thousands of Jews on account when I live and when to school.  I'd venture to say that vast majority of Canadian and American Jews identify so closely on an emotional level Israel that they genuinely can't see the difference.


Offline Dry Brett Kavanaugh

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3306 on: December 03, 2021, 08:11:26 AM »
I don’t have stats here now, but the the people of Jewish race and/or Jewish religion in the West increasingly became anti-Israel, or less supportive of Israel in this century.

Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3307 on: December 03, 2021, 08:14:03 AM »
I should hasten to say the I'm not Jewish nor of Jewish extraction, and I am "something like agnostic-atheist" though I was raised Christian.  And I'll admit I said some "very unfortunate" things in my youth too but they are alien to my present feelings.

The bigger question today is whether one can harshly criticize the state of Israel without being anti-Semitic.  Logically and fairly one can.  However I've known many Jews who don't accept that.  I've known hundreds or probably thousands of Jews on account when I live and when to school.  I'd venture to say that vast majority of Canadian and American Jews identify so closely on an emotional level Israel that they genuinely can't see the difference.
There’s a large number of Jewish people who have that attachment and sentiment. There are some very prominent Jewish people who do not. I think these laws that penalize people for having an anti-Israel opinion (maybe Texas?) should be struck down. I don’t think people should be de-platformed, banned, cancelled, etc. for being BDS, even though I disagree with them somewhat. I do draw the line with Hamas but I’m not an expert in this area to really explain the details. I work with a professor who’s got all these pro-Palestinian pictures and messages on and around his door and some of them are militant-sounding. He’s got pictures of rifles and other stuff. He once said to a colleague in front of me, referring to - I think - Michelle Goldberg, “she’s one of the good ones,” or something like that. That was a few years ago. If you replaced Jews with some other minority group in this scenario, it’d be a cancelable offense? Anyway, I do agree that the ADL cries wolf on this issue. Being “anti-Israel government” in a political sense is legitimate IMO. These days, I don’t totally understand where the politics of that situation is supposed to be heading.
I wonder if anyone caught the joke Dave Chappelle made about Jews and Israel amidst all the brouhaha over the trans stuff?

Offline milk

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3308 on: December 03, 2021, 08:17:26 AM »
I don’t have stats here now, but the the people of Jewish race and/or Jewish religion in the West increasingly became anti-Israel, or less supportive of Israel in this century.
A little less supportive probably. When my parents were young, Israel was unquestionable and they did all kinds of things like money for trees and bonds and what have you. I’m actually sorry I took the party instead of the Kibbutz when I was 13. I’d be a whole different person.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3309 on: December 03, 2021, 02:02:25 PM »
Appeals court weighs whether Justice Department should substitute for Trump in defamation suit

https://abcnews.go.com/US/appeals-court-weighs-justice-department-substitute-trump-defamation/story?id=81540754

PD

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3310 on: December 03, 2021, 02:23:07 PM »
Parents of Michigan school-shooting suspect charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter
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Online Daverz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3311 on: December 03, 2021, 02:31:14 PM »
I don’t have stats here now, but the the people of Jewish race and/or Jewish religion in the West increasingly became anti-Israel, or less supportive of Israel in this century.

It's not complicated:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7ebPj_FqM5Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7ebPj_FqM5Q</a>

Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3312 on: December 03, 2021, 03:17:47 PM »
This might be paywalled, but perhaps there's a Google workaround:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/12/04/the-democrats-fiscal-policy-makes-a-mockery-of-their-progressive-pledges

The tax plans of President Joe Biden were once full of lofty promises. He and Democrats in Congress would reverse Donald Trump’s tax cuts, make the wealthy pay more and fully fund all manner of desperately needed climate and social-policy programmes with the proceeds. The middle class would rise and the top 1% would manage. As the messy drafting of Mr Biden’s main spending bill—the Build Back Better Act—nears its conclusion after months of wheeling and dealing, it is clear that, when it comes to tax, the result is not lofty at all.

The president was unable to whip his slim congressional majorities into reversing Mr Trump’s tax law and increasing marginal rates on capital gains, corporate profits or top individual incomes. And so his plan to raise revenue is a hotch-potch of unorthodox measures, including a new minimum tax on corporate-book income, an excise tax on stock buy-backs and a new surtax on those with incomes above $10m. The wisdom of these measures can be debated. What cannot is a last-minute addition to the bill that would spend hundreds of billions of dollars subsidising the richest residents of New York and California.

The state-and-local-tax (salt) deduction lets Americans cut their federal-tax liability if they pay lots of income and property tax at the state and local level. Before 2017 this provision was limitless, letting plutocrats in high-tax states deduct all the property tax on their mansions and the state income tax on their millions, at the expense of federal taxpayers everywhere. Mr Trump’s tax law capped the tax exemption at $10,000. Rather than welcome this as a step towards their goal of more redistribution, Democrats in high-tax states moaned that they had been punitively targeted. Just before Build Back Better passed the House of Representatives on November 19th, they raised the cap to $80,000 a year.


The result is a fiscal fiasco. In the next five years the benefit will cost $275bn. Exactly none of it will go to the bottom 60% of earners. Instead 70% of the gains will go to the top 5%. For a party that came to power condemning Mr Trump’s tax reform for being regressive, the stain of hypocrisy will be hard to wash out....

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3313 on: December 03, 2021, 06:25:43 PM »
As to "the stain of hypocrisy" where do they factor in the Republican stonewalling? Where the Manchin/Sinema factor?
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3314 on: December 03, 2021, 06:40:17 PM »
For the record, for me the greatest disappointment in the Biden administration has been the insufficient/disorganized strategy to buttress voting rights. Not that this to be laid absolutely at Biden's feet, but the sustained and terribly organized Republican assault on democracy here will lead first to a GQP lock on power, and then (considering all the complicit upprt-level Repubs, a slide into authoritarianism.
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Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3315 on: December 03, 2021, 07:48:37 PM »
As to "the stain of hypocrisy" where do they factor in the Republican stonewalling? Where the Manchin/Sinema factor?

Those things were predictable. Democrats overplayed their hand, and never really possessed the power to pass sweeping mandates. Their (doomed) majority in the House was offset by a nonexistent (given the 2 DINOs) "majority" in the Senate. Much of the ballyhooed progressive program had no chance of ever seeing the light of day.

For the record, for me the greatest disappointment in the Biden administration has been the insufficient/disorganized strategy to buttress voting rights. Not that this to be laid absolutely at Biden's feet, but the sustained and terribly organized Republican assault on democracy here will lead first to a GQP lock on power, and then (considering all the complicit upprt-level Repubs, a slide into authoritarianism.

Agreed. Not sure they could have succeeded, but there was no apparent strategy.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3316 on: December 03, 2021, 10:06:04 PM »
Those things were predictable. Democrats overplayed their hand, and never really possessed the power to pass sweeping mandates. Their (doomed) majority in the House was offset by a nonexistent (given the 2 DINOs) "majority" in the Senate. Much of the ballyhooed progressive program had no chance of ever seeing the light of day.

Agreed. Not sure they could have succeeded, but there was no apparent strategy.

All your points well taken.
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Offline Spotted Horses

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3317 on: December 03, 2021, 10:17:00 PM »
Agreed. Not sure they could have succeeded, but there was no apparent strategy.

Huh? Their strategy was to pass into law one of the two comprehensive packages of voting rights legislation before the Congress. The problem is that in the Senate the Democrats do not have a real majority. There are 50 votes in the Democrat caucus, which means they can force a tie and bring in Harris as the tie breaking vote. Joe Manchin has refused to support the legislation. When you don't have a majority you can only block things, you can't do things.

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3318 on: December 04, 2021, 06:28:18 AM »
Those things were predictable. Democrats overplayed their hand, and never really possessed the power to pass sweeping mandates. Their (doomed) majority in the House was offset by a nonexistent (given the 2 DINOs) "majority" in the Senate. Much of the ballyhooed progressive program had no chance of ever seeing the light of day.

Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best” ~ Otto von Bismarck

Much and all that I agree with the Democrat progressive, Bismarck's insight is something they should take to heart.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #3319 on: December 04, 2021, 09:38:44 AM »
Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best” ~ Otto von Bismarck

Much and all that I agree with the Democrat progressive, Bismarck's insight is something they should take to heart.

Indeed.
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