USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

milk

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2022, 06:35:25 AM
No, they're going to rig things so that they can rule with their white-grievance minority.
Is characterizing conservatives this way good for the Democratic Party? I agree that the Republican part can't be saved if its identity is 1/6 and that always-trump will eventually lead them to ruin. But there's a serious problem on the left: identitarianism and the gifting of one part of the electorate, as defined this way by Democrats, to the Republicans.

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Yabetz on June 12, 2022, 06:15:48 PM
And that's solely the fault of the Democrats. Too many people are fed up with identity politics, and that -- along with constant Trump-hate -- is all the Democrats have to offer anymore. They're even in the process of losing the Latino vote...which they thought would give them an electoral lock for all eternity. On the other hand the Republican establishment is still stuck on the same mantras they've had since at least the 80s and probably long before that.

What's gone wrong is the death of give-and-take, win-some-lose-some classical liberalism. There is no "loyal opposition" anymore. It's now scorched-earth, win at all costs blood sport, with less and less serving as unifying symbols or ideals. I think the US is headed for internal disintegration, to be honest.

The people became more ideological and ex-liberal Republicans and ex-conservative Democrats changed the party. Plus because of polarization in income and ideology and gerrymandering, there are fewer centrist, mixed districts/states. A great majority of districts are Democratic dominant or GOP dominant districts. In such districts/states, centrist/moderate candidates will lose in primaries. You need to be ideologically extreme in order to win primaries. Therefore, we see more ideologicalized legislators in Congress. If they make compromises, they will lose in next primaries.

71 dB

#3562
Quote from: Yabetz on June 12, 2022, 06:15:48 PM
And that's solely the fault of the Democrats.

Yes. They are weak and hopeless. They are the "do nothing" party.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 12, 2022, 06:15:48 PMToo many people are fed up with identity politics, and that -- along with constant Trump-hate -- is all the Democrats have to offer anymore.

Both the Republicans and the Democrats have hardly anything to offer, but the difference is the Republicans are much much better at selling what they are offering (lower taxes for the rich, racism, xenophobia, anti-abortion, gun rights, theocracy,...)

Quote from: Yabetz on June 12, 2022, 06:15:48 PMThey're even in the process of losing the Latino vote...which they thought would give them an electoral lock for all eternity. On the other hand the Republican establishment is still stuck on the same mantras they've had since at least the 80s and probably long before that.

Part of this is because of gerrymandering and other things to make voting difficult. In Finland election days are Sundays and it has never took me more than 10 minutes to vote (typically 2 minutes). Compare that to the US, where voting happens on Tuesdays and can take hours to do. No wonder a lot people don't vote at all.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 12, 2022, 06:15:48 PMWhat's gone wrong is the death of give-and-take, win-some-lose-some classical liberalism. There is no "loyal opposition" anymore. It's now scorched-earth, win at all costs blood sport, with less and less serving as unifying symbols or ideals. I think the US is headed for internal disintegration, to be honest.

Both parties benefit from the other one being the enemy. It is easier to collect campaign donations when the enemy has to be defeated. The US is a very unstable society. I don't know if it will disintegrate, but it is a country that operates far below its potential offering ridiculously low quality of living to many of its citizens compared to how rich and powerful the country is. The first thing that should happen in the US is to get money out of politics. Before that happens there is very little that can be done to improve anything. The problem is its nearly impossible to get money out of politics once it has gotten there.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

71 dB

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 05:40:16 AM
Well if the Republicans can be called theocratic racists, then the Democrats can be called utopian socialists...and frankly the former do a better job at leaving me alone than the latter. I'm not a member of either party.

Republicans can be called  theocratic racists to some extend (some of them more than others of course). They like to use the Bible (rather than science for example) as an excuse to their politics (even when the Bible opposes to those views!). Their politics is also clearly racist in its goal to maintain white power.

Democrats on the other hand are lightyears from utopian socialists including the most left members such as Bernie Sanders and AOC who are Social democrats while most of the party are right wing Republican lights, effectively crony capitalists, which you could call supporters of socialism for the rich, but people don't mean that when they call the Dems socialists. They aren't utopian either, because even the left wing ideas they advocate are commonplace in Europe for example. They are tested and successful. You could say that the left wing economic policies are utopian in an oligarchy, but that is not the reason why people call the ideas utopian. That's just a reason to take money out of politics to end the oligarchy!

You don't want to be left alone in all situations. If I for example get seriously sick, I want the society help me so that I don't die or go bankrupt. I am also happy living in a country that tries to take care of its citizens so that the streets are not full of homeless people and I don't need to fear getting robbed and so on. Yeah, I probably pay more taxes than you, but a happy society teaches people that there is more to good life than hoarding as much money as you can. After the basic needs are taken care of and then little extra, more money doesn't really matter. It just changes the style you live your life. The problem is that the US struggle to provide the basic stuff for many people even when it easily could changing the priorities.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Karl Henning

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 05:40:16 AM
Yeah, but to be fair we had 5+ years of hearing how the 2016 election was "stolen", likewise based on a lie from people who just will not accept a loss.

Your prefatory and vacuous "to be fair" is a bit cute. If you don't see the difference between Al Gore conceding the election, and the wankmaggot dotard's scheming, you need a new oculist. I question your moral compass also with your dismissal of finding credible evidence of wrong-doing on Trump's part (and lawful citizens considering that he is not above the law) as Trump-hate. you're drinking out of the toilet on this one.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 08:18:09 AM
Zero evidence of any "Russian collusion". The thing is, every time the Democrats lose elections they wuz robbed. Any time they win, it's treason to question the outcome.

The establishment was forced to lie, because they can't admit their fails. Hillary Clinton was a very lousy and entitled candidate who might have won in 1992, but not in the era of political populism against a super-populist Trump. The difference is that the Dems do it to save their faces while the the Reps try to change the outcome of the elections. There was no insurrection to the capitol in January 2017 to hang Biden, but there was one in January 2021 to hang Pence.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

BasilValentine

#3566
Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 08:18:09 AM
Zero evidence of any "Russian collusion". The thing is, every time the Democrats lose elections they wuz robbed. Any time they win, it's treason to question the outcome.

Amazing. At this late date another who has never bothered to read the Mueller report but insists on spouting off. RNC polling data was provided on a regular basis by the Trump campaign to Russian operatives, notably Konstantin Kilimnik, and used by Russian disinformation specialists to target messaging in battleground states. The leverage for this was Paul Manafort's eleven million dollar debt to Oleg Deripaska, who dropped his suit for the recovery of this debt once the information started flowing. Then, of course, the obvious: Trump, on the day an embarrassing tape of him bragging about serial sexual assaults became public, asked on national TV that the Russians help in exposing Hillary's missing emails, followed the next day by a Russian hacking campaign to do just that. Then there was the Trump Tower meeting where three Trump clowns attempted to barter for information discrediting Clinton but were too stupid to understand the quid pro quo required by the other side.

Quote from: 71 dB on June 13, 2022, 08:43:28 AM
The establishment was forced to lie, because they can't admit their fails. Hillary Clinton was a very lousy and entitled candidate who might have won in 1992, but not in the era of political populism against a super-populist Trump.

See above.

JBS

Trumpniks colluding with Russia obviously happened.
Hillary being arrogant, entitled, with more than a scent of corruption about her, and not a great candidate is true as well.  The Russian meddling merely amplified the effects of that.
So Yabetz is wrong but 71dB is right.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

The "yahoos" were fully armed and trying to force Congress to proclaim Trump as winner of the 2020 election, instigated by Trump and his allies. They were trying to kill the Constitution.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 12:12:37 PM
"Obviously happened"? Prove it. And how did "Russian meddling" amplify Hillary Clinton's minuses? What was it, $100k in Facebook ads? Let's talk about Hillary/DNC  dealings with Russian assets.

Basil gave that information.
May not have changed any votes does not mean it didn't happen.

You need to watch something other than Fox News.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 12:10:14 PM
No there wasn't. It was a bunch of unarmed yahoos who thought they were being snookered by a rigged election. The summer before that we had entire city blocks being looted and burned.

Trump himself encouraged them to go there. A lot of GOP voters believe Trump won:

https://www.newsweek.com/59-gop-voters-say-believing-trump-won-2020-important-being-republican-poll-1628281

Looting and burning stuff is obviously wrong, but a lot of Americans are frustrated and fed up with the politicians not serving them and how the police operates.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Karl Henning

When Barr says Trump is full of shit, he's a "Democratic stooge," right?

Barr testified in his deposition that at one point, Trump yelled at him and the White House counsel. "[He] was as mad as I've ever seen him, and he was trying to control himself," Barr said. He paraphrased Trump's reply: "Well, this is, you know, killing me. You didn't have to say this. You must've said this because you hate Trump." Barr went through evidence to debunk allegations of fraud in Detroit. He called the claims about Dominion voting machines "idiotic." Trump was "indignant." The next day, Trump reiterated on Fox News the same claims Barr had debunked.

On Dec. 14, Trump again insisted there was fraud, claiming it meant he would have a "second term." Barr observed that Trump had "become detached from reality" and reiterated that "the election was not stolen by fraud." He was convinced Trump "wasn't listening."


Id est, as we knew all along, the only fraud in the election was named Trump.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 13, 2022, 01:22:47 PM
When Barr says Trump is full of shit, he's a "Democratic stooge," right?

Barr testified in his deposition that at one point, Trump yelled at him and the White House counsel. "[He] was as mad as I've ever seen him, and he was trying to control himself," Barr said. He paraphrased Trump's reply: "Well, this is, you know, killing me. You didn't have to say this. You must've said this because you hate Trump." Barr went through evidence to debunk allegations of fraud in Detroit. He called the claims about Dominion voting machines "idiotic." Trump was "indignant." The next day, Trump reiterated on Fox News the same claims Barr had debunked.

On Dec. 14, Trump again insisted there was fraud, claiming it meant he would have a "second term." Barr observed that Trump had "become detached from reality" and reiterated that "the election was not stolen by fraud." He was convinced Trump "wasn't listening."


Id est, as we knew all along, the only fraud in the election was named Trump.

Nor were Trump's calls for violence restricted to the date of 6 January:

Pak's testimony seems to confirms the widely held opinion of many legal experts that prosecution of Trump for his actions to pressure Georgia state election officials might be the easily proven aspect of Trump's coup attempt.

Barr's testimony similarly debunked the claim that there were more votes than voters in Philadelphia, which Barr called "rubbish." Philadelphia's former Republican city commissioner Al Schmidt also testified that his office checked out all claims, no matter how insane, and found nothing. He described the intense level of threats following Trump's malicious accusations via Twitter. The threats became more "specific" and "graphic."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

SimonNZ

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PM
None of the politicians were ever really in danger

Its quite clear they were in very real danger. And everything that has been learned since that day has confirmed that.


JBS

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 12:24:31 PM
What's your source for that? The only ones armed were the Capitol police.What, the Mueller report?Why did the DNC refuse to allow the FBI or DHS to examine the servers? AFAIK the only ones who examined them were the DNC-employed CrowdStrike.I don't watch any cable news.

Whatever your source of news may be, it's obviously full of Trump supporting BS, because that's all your post is.

I'm putting you on Ignore, and I suggest everyone else here does.


Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

71 dB

#3574
Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PM
And what percent of Democrats believe Hillary actually won in 2016?

Quick Googling didn't give an answer to that. I'd say hardly anyone.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PMAnd again a lot of Americans were frustrated with the appearance of voting irregularities in 2020.

There were about 60 court cases about this and they lost them all. Even Trump appointed judges said there is no evidence.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PMThey didn't burn down the Capitol.

Nobody says they did.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PMNone of the politicians were ever really in danger, all the "democracy in peril" hyperpartisan hyperbolic b.s. aside.

They were in danger. Only a moron says otherwise.

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PMYeah it was stupid, but it wasn't an insurrection any more than antifa taking over a chunk of Seattle was. And also even now we have groups attempting to shut down the Supreme Court by besieging the building, with no cries of insurrection.≈

Whatever. I am a Finn. Why do I care? Americans must sort these things out themselves...

Quote from: Yabetz on June 13, 2022, 01:58:31 PMAll this -- the reactions here -- demonstrates exactly why classical liberalism is dead. Forget gerrymandering and "misinformation". Political agendas become religion. Dissenters are demonic heretics who should just shut up and disappear. It isn't possible to disagree respectfully. You've got to smash someone's face in.

I am too tired to decode this tirade... i don't even follow US politics anymore that much.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Karl Henning

Quote from: SimonNZ on June 13, 2022, 02:37:22 PM
Its quite clear they were in very real danger. And everything that has been learned since that day has confirmed that.



Meseems you are addressing someone who is wilfully impervious to fact.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2022, 03:24:23 PM
Whatever your source of news may be, it's obviously full of Trump supporting BS, because that's all your post is.

I'm putting you on Ignore, and I suggest everyone else here does.



I'm one step ahead of you.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Jennifer Rubin:

Rep. Don Bacon (R-Neb.) declared, "We have to learn the lesson 'why did we lose in 2020?' It was the comportment and the temperament." He also agreed with the suggestion that Trump was guilty of "dereliction of duty." Bacon went further, saying he would not dismiss out of hand a criminal indictment of Trump. Despite these views, Bacon won more than 80 percent of the vote in his primary contest last month.

It is not hard for Republicans to admit the obvious, to stop pandering to the deluded MAGA base and to acknowledge that Trump betrayed his oath. Yet the timorous McCarthy (not to mention the ridiculously ambitious crew of 2024 contenders) cannot manage even that.

All praise is due to Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), who has already earned her place in history. But amid the admiration and praise for her, the question remains: Why is the rest of her party so cowardly?


deluded MAGA base ... whereof there is no lack of evidence here.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

And we saw some of this blather today, as well:

Department of Whataboutery
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

milk

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 13, 2022, 06:13:05 PM
Jennifer Rubin:

Rep. Don Bacon (R-Neb.) declared, "We have to learn the lesson 'why did we lose in 2020?' It was the comportment and the temperament." He also agreed with the suggestion that Trump was guilty of "dereliction of duty." Bacon went further, saying he would not dismiss out of hand a criminal indictment of Trump. Despite these views, Bacon won more than 80 percent of the vote in his primary contest last month.

It is not hard for Republicans to admit the obvious, to stop pandering to the deluded MAGA base and to acknowledge that Trump betrayed his oath. Yet the timorous McCarthy (not to mention the ridiculously ambitious crew of 2024 contenders) cannot manage even that.

All praise is due to Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), who has already earned her place in history. But amid the admiration and praise for her, the question remains: Why is the rest of her party so cowardly?


deluded MAGA base ... whereof there is no lack of evidence here.
It is interesting isn't it. A non-American friend was asking me about this compared to Nixon. With Nixon, his own party came to him and told him he was done. Conformist bias among republicans has taken this rot to a cancer on the party. How can we function without two reasonable parties (at least)? How can democracy? Republicans are very lucky in a way. What if they had broken all the way in and actually got their hands on a congress-person? Republicans dodged a bullet (or a beating/hanging). They can say it's all nothing while crossing their fingers behind their backs. It's cowardly. They must know that, but for luck, they could be in a position of being banished and branded as the party that ate itself by encouraging a mob to really hurt someone.
In a way trumpf was pretty surprising. In another way, he followed the book while all-the-while winking as if it could all just be a big joke. If he doesn't make a come-back then I think the narrative led by a very brave Cheney will stick. If he does come back...

As an aside, I might have mentioned that my family lost my sibling to this cult. It's her that it cut us off, including parents, just because we'd rather not discuss it. She refuses to even agree to disagree.