Author Topic: USA Politics (redux)  (Read 10410 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #500 on: November 22, 2020, 05:21:45 PM »

If folks want to try to minimize the historical importance and moral disgrace of a US President who is a wannabe autocrat by casuistic squabbling over the word "fascist," yes they're dilly-dallying over a distraction.  Very Trumpian, incidentally
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Offline flyingdutchman

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #501 on: November 22, 2020, 08:01:22 PM »
I think it illuminating to see how abnormal Trump has been in the history of the US. We can point to various past presidents who have exhibited traits that can be described as autocratic. Whether fascism is the word or philosophy to use may be considered by some to be a stretch, I see a man who has used the Justice Dept. for his own bidding. He's eliminated dissent wherever it has popped its head up, and he sought dirt on his main opponent (Biden) from a foreign state in 2019 and clearly begged Russia for the same in 2016. He's been the worst president in this country's history and has made moves to trash our alliances and destroy our standing in the world.

Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #502 on: November 22, 2020, 08:36:59 PM »
I think it illuminating to see how abnormal Trump has been in the history of the US. We can point to various past presidents who have exhibited traits that can be described as autocratic. Whether fascism is the word or philosophy to use may be considered by some to be a stretch, I see a man who has used the Justice Dept. for his own bidding. He's eliminated dissent wherever it has popped its head up, and he sought dirt on his main opponent (Biden) from a foreign state in 2019 and clearly begged Russia for the same in 2016. He's been the worst president in this country's history and has made moves to trash our alliances and destroy our standing in the world.

Back in 2015, even before the emergence of Cheeto Mussolini, I was bothered by certain political developments (e.g. the claimed rights of fundamentalist Christians to refuse service to gays) which reminded me of "First they came...", and made a point of reading Hannah Arendt's The origins of totalitarianism. Not a perfect book but informative. There is certainly similarity between Arendt's "totalitarianism" and the CM/alternative media/alt-right/conspiracy theory axis.

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #503 on: November 22, 2020, 08:43:49 PM »
Back in 2015, even before the emergence of Cheeto Mussolini, I was bothered by certain political developments (e.g. the claimed rights of fundamentalist Christians to refuse service to gays) which reminded me of "First they came...", and made a point of reading Hannah Arendt's The origins of totalitarianism. Not a perfect book but informative. There is certainly similarity between Arendt's "totalitarianism" and the CM/alternative media/alt-right/conspiracy theory axis.

My favorite sign from the protests over the Muslim Travel Ban seven days after his inauguration, and one of my favorites across the whole Trump era was: "First They Came For The Muslims And We Said...Not This Time, Motherfucker."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 08:47:07 PM by SimonNZ »

Offline Herman

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #504 on: November 23, 2020, 12:42:19 AM »
What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

I believe after this message this topic was shut down for a while, again.

Why do you, as a non-American engage in deliberatie disinformation and propaganda, calling people "traitor" and doing the "Socialist Obama" spiel?

Obama is not a socialist, he is a moderate Democrat who could easily have been a Republican twenty years ago.

Offline Florestan

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #505 on: November 23, 2020, 12:49:22 AM »
Obama is not a socialist, he is a moderate Democrat who could easily have been a Republican twenty years ago.

I know all this alright. My post about the "Socialist" Obama attacking the Socialist Lybian Jamahiria was tongue in cheek but I forgot to put the scare quotes and an emoticon at the end. Apparently this caused a storm in a glass of water.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #506 on: November 23, 2020, 08:43:33 AM »
What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

Obama is not a socialist. He is a centrist corporate. He read Karl Marx to impress and get laid with a lefty chick in the university. Later he campaigned as a left-leaning Dem to become the president, but governed as a corporate implementing Republican healthcare plan and starting endless wars. He is not at all interested of lefty ideology beyond cynical exploitation of it. Obama is the enemy of the left. He stopped Bernie last spring. Horrible selfish man and I have been a complete fool not to see it until a few years back when I got into the US politics better.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 08:47:47 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #507 on: November 23, 2020, 08:43:52 AM »
For your information, as many of you probably already know, Michigan is one of the states planning/hoping to certify it's votes today.  I did a bit of googling and found out that the Michigan Board of State Canvassers' meeting [a virtual one] is at 1 p.m. today (I found this out via the Detroit Freepress online).  One can watch it live online.  Also, they are taking questions from the public:

"The public can comment on the meeting in writing or speak at the meeting. Requests must be submitted by signing up on the department's website here.

Members of the public who wish to speak at the meeting will be invited based on the order in which the request is received. They will have up to 3 minutes to address the board and can expect to receive information about how to log on to the webinar by the email they provide in the sign-up form."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/ [They will embed the video on their website when it goes live; they also have a link to the youtube site which will be broadcasting it live in this article.].

Apparently, one of the board member, a Republican, has stated that he will vote against the certification.  That means then that the other Republican and the two Democrats will have to vote for it to pass.  He (sorry, I forget his name at the moment) apparently wants there to be an audit first, but legally, they have to first certify the votes and only then could there be an audit, etc.

PD

p.s.  Has anyone here heard more about what is going on with the GSA's Emily Murphy?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 08:46:39 AM by Pohjolas Daughter »

Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #508 on: November 23, 2020, 09:11:57 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-appeals-pennsylvania-vote-case-seeking-to-block-biden-.html

The Trump campaign’s appeal of its devastating loss in federal court in Pennsylvania misspells the word “president” and butchers grammar.

The appeal filed Monday also does not ask an appeals court to reverse its defeat or temporarily block Pennsylvania counties’ certification of votes, which are due Monday.

Instead, the appeal at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit effectively asks for a do-over of its so-far-botched legal effort to invalidate enough votes in Pennsylvania to overturn a projected victory for President-elect Joe Biden.

The campaign wants the appeals court to allow it to pursue a second amended lawsuit, which the lower court judge effectively barred them from doing with his ruling Saturday.

The appeal appears to be as much of a long shot as the case that it is based on. But it could speed up what the Trump campaign says is its plan to get the case heard by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #509 on: November 23, 2020, 09:24:19 AM »
I seem to recall some months back when people were saying Trump is the kind of person who would refuse to concede the election you felt this was preposterous, described it as TDS, and demanded that if and when Trump did loose and bowed out graciously that everyone here had to admit they suffered from TDS.

If people are still commenting on Trump after Jan 20 it will be because he will still be trying to sow dissent and division and subvert democratic institutions. And because the last five years need studying.

Donald Trump is a pathological narcissist, (see ... Narcissistic Personality Disorder).  To him it is impossible to admit defeat and rejection;  instead he is psychologically compelled blame his defeat on opponents' cheating and fraud.

In the dark corners of his psyche Trump foresaw his defeat and began to construct his excuse around that he had heard that Democrats would disproportionately vote by mail-in ballot.  But note that this myth exploded once the mailed ballot aspect played out:  now there is all sorts of claims around huge quantities of false ballots, stolen ballots, dirty vote counters, etc., etc..

What is so sad for our American friends is that millions have bought Trump's big lie at face value despite its obvious origin and purpose.

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #510 on: November 23, 2020, 09:37:26 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/trump-appeals-pennsylvania-vote-case-seeking-to-block-biden-.html

The Trump campaign’s appeal of its devastating loss in federal court in Pennsylvania misspells the word “president” and butchers grammar.

The appeal filed Monday also does not ask an appeals court to reverse its defeat or temporarily block Pennsylvania counties’ certification of votes, which are due Monday.

Instead, the appeal at the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 3rd Circuit effectively asks for a do-over of its so-far-botched legal effort to invalidate enough votes in Pennsylvania to overturn a projected victory for President-elect Joe Biden.

The campaign wants the appeals court to allow it to pursue a second amended lawsuit, which the lower court judge effectively barred them from doing with his ruling Saturday.

The appeal appears to be as much of a long shot as the case that it is based on. But it could speed up what the Trump campaign says is its plan to get the case heard by the U.S. Supreme Court.
This part would be laughable if it weren't such a serious matter:

"In another pending long-shot case, Pennsylvania Republicans, including Rep. Mike Kelly filed a complaint in Commonwealth Court seeking to stop certain kinds of mail-in ballots from being included in the state’s final tally.

The plaintiffs seek to block the certification of the election in the state, claiming that mail-in ballots cast under an allegedly “unconstitutional” law signed last year by Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf, a Democrat, cannot be counted.

The law, Act 77, expanded access for Pennsylvania voters to cast mail-in ballots without an excuse.

After the lawsuit was filed, observers quickly pointed out that Act 77 passed a GOP-controlled Pennsylvania state legislature in 2019 with overwhelming support."

PD

Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #511 on: November 23, 2020, 09:39:19 AM »
Donald Trump is a pathological narcissist, (see ... Narcissistic Personality Disorder).  To him it is impossible to admit defeat and rejection;  instead he is psychologically compelled blame his defeat on opponents' cheating and fraud.

In the dark corners of his psyche Trump foresaw his defeat and began to construct his excuse around that he had heard that Democrats would disproportionately vote by mail-in ballot.  But note that this myth exploded once the mailed ballot aspect played out:  now there is all sorts of claims around huge quantities of false ballots, stolen ballots, dirty vote counters, etc., etc..

What is so sad for our American friends is that millions have bought Trump's big lie at face value despite its obvious origin and purpose.
And Pres. Trump has even voted by mail himself too (though not during this election)!  ::)

Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #512 on: November 23, 2020, 09:42:05 AM »
     



p.s.  Has anyone here heard more about what is going on with the GSA's Emily Murphy?


     Emily Murphy is supposed to brief House committees today on her refusal to start the official transition. That's all I know.

     She is supposed to ascertain the apparent winner. The Universe with a Murphy shaped hole in it knows Biden is the winner, and that's all there is to ascertainment.
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Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #513 on: November 23, 2020, 10:09:13 AM »
     

     Emily Murphy is supposed to brief House committees today on her refusal to start the official transition. That's all I know.

     She is supposed to ascertain the apparent winner. The Universe with a Murphy shaped hole in it knows Biden is the winner, and that's all there is to ascertainment.
Yes, that's the last that I had heard too.

I really hope that the Michigan vote isn't split.  Oh, the remote live-stream has started here.  https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/


PD

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #514 on: November 23, 2020, 10:16:22 AM »
     To be clear, I'm amenable to using a different word for the Trumpist phenomenon. If Trumpism is sufficiently different from historical examples then we should try to understand it according to the differences instead of dismissing it as derangement of some kind. If the support of American fascists isn't enough to make Trump one of their own, we still have to figure out why they support him. I think we've done that. If Trump isn't a "real" fascist, he'll do until a real one comes along.

I believe that Trump's latest and most dangerous attack on American democracy is his "big lie" that the recent election was stolen from him by fraud and cheating.  There wasn't and isn't any objectively credible evidence of this, however it is important to realized that millions of Americans believe it, (including Trump himself).

I believe this myth of the stolen election will be used by Trump to grab the '24 Republican nomination and work the myth for election to a 2nd term -- if that happens who knows what further attacks on democracy will ensue?  It won't be pretty, though.  If Trump's health declines it's no cause to celebrate because some Trump protege will step up to take his place.

Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Naze regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 10:30:10 AM by Fëanor »

Offline T. D.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #515 on: November 23, 2020, 10:33:13 AM »
I believe that Trump's latest and most dangerous attack on American democracy is his "big lie" that the recent election was stolen from him by fraud and cheating.  There wasn't and isn't any objectively credible evidence of this, however it is important to realized that millions of Americans believe it, (including Trump himself).

I believe this myth of the stolen election will be used by Trump to grab the '24 Republican nomination and work the myth for election to a 2nd term -- if that happens who knows what further attacks on democracy will ensue?  It won't be pretty, though.  If Trump's health declines it's no cause to celebrate because some Trump protege will step up to take his place.

Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Nazi regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.

[Emphasis added] A very good point. And it won't even have to be a Cheeto Mussolini protege (sorry, I simply can't speak or type "T***p"). IMO all this s**t simply reflects the new GOP game plan.

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #516 on: November 23, 2020, 10:44:41 AM »
I guess Trump follows the currently popular philosophy of “never give up on your dream, keep fighting and you will get what you want in the end” ::).

Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #517 on: November 23, 2020, 10:44:48 AM »


     
Yes, that's the last that I had heard too.

I really hope that the Michigan vote isn't split.  Oh, the remote live-stream has started here.  https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/23/will-michigan-certify-election-results/6388530002/


PD


     You can watch on C-SPAN.
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Offline Todd

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #518 on: November 23, 2020, 10:47:32 AM »
Fareed Zakaria of CNN drew a parallel to the "stabbed in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany which was instrumental in the rise of German right-wing populism and eventually the Naze regime.  This myth held that socialist, Communists, and Jew undermined the (military-controlled) German government on the brink of victory, causing the defeat of Germany and the end of the monarchy.


Does he have a book he's peddling?  (Yes, as it turns out.)

And, yes, maybe the US follows the example of Germany, the only example that exists.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #519 on: November 23, 2020, 10:49:33 AM »
I guess Trump follows the currently popular philosophy of “never give up on your dream, keep fighting and you will get what you want in the end” ::).

 :D :D :D

A sentiment most vividly expressed by the greatest purveyor of this pseudo-philosophcal crap, Paulo Coelho: 'And, when you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.' Maybe Trump is a fan?
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