USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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Herman

and the other (rearview) mirror thing is, if Biden c.s. had hoped to flip Florida, he should have spent more time there, like the woman in the article says.

That day Biden went to Texas because it seemed like Texas could be flipped (as if) was maybe not a day well-spent.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Herman on November 14, 2020, 12:20:25 PM
and the other (rearview) mirror thing is, if Biden c.s. had hoped to flip Florida, he should have spent more time there, like the woman in the article says.

That day Biden went to Texas because it seemed like Texas could be flipped (as if) was maybe not a day well-spent.


Dead on.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

David Brooks: Dictators around the world are delighted to see an American President refusing to accept the election results.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Herman

On PBS Newshour Brooks, whom I am not a fan of, was saying the takeaway was that the Dems should stop thinking demographic changes in America will automatically soon deliver them endless victories.

MusicTurner

More now on the #45 / Russia story, but sketchy - further top secret intelligence exists, former FBI chief Andrew McCabe says - but that sources had to be protected ...

"There is some very, very serious, very specific, undeniable intelligence that has not come out, that if it were released, would risk compromising our access to that sort of information in the future. I think it would also risk casting the president in a very negative light - so, would he have a motivation to release those things? "

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-fbi-secret-intelligence-russia-b1722964.html




Daverz

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 09:02:04 AM
If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.

What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?

Karl Henning

Quote from: Herman on November 14, 2020, 12:36:16 PM
On PBS Newshour Brooks, whom I am not a fan of, was saying the takeaway was that the Dems should stop thinking demographic changes in America will automatically soon deliver them endless victories.

Which harmonizes with, among other things, your comment viz. Florida.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

#207
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 14, 2020, 09:02:04 AM
If the hard left forgets/fails to digest that it was the appeal to the center which put Biden in the White House, and fail to put pragmatism over "purity" they're just going to feed the Trumpism beast.

During Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working. Regular people don't like corporate Dems and corporate Dems hate their voters. Regular people strugging to pay the bills and in danger of going bankrupt if they get ill don't want corruption and enless enrichment of insurance companies, military industry complex etc. Biden won because Trump is insanely bad. This was an anti-Trump election. Like Kyle Kulinski says, a rusty bucket filled with vomit would have won Trump. Since this election was this close, Biden is not much better than a rusty bucket filled with vomit, practically a moderate Republican who is against medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic while 80-90 % of Democratic base is for medicare for all. If Biden was campaigning for the economic populism he could have won over 400 electoral votes.
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Todd

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 01:14:10 PMDuring Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working.

Incorrect.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

#210
Quote from: Daverz on November 14, 2020, 12:43:10 PM
What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?

     Yes, and I think you could also question the "appeal to the center". Does the center want almost good health care, half an economic program, some infrastructure and some not infrastructure? The halfway economic recovery after the GFC did great damage to the prosperity of working class Americans. When the economy fails, there is a search for culprits.

     A centrist appeal is not advocacy for a distinct set of programs. The appeal announces an attitude that's flexible and willingness to compromise and trade. It could be a promise to demons to refrain from demonization and allow them to maintain a human form. They like that.

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JBS

Quote from: 71 dB on November 14, 2020, 01:14:10 PM
During Obama's 8 years in White House the Dems lost over 1000 seats "appealing to the center" so EMPIRICAL evidence tells us appealing to the center is not working. Regular people don't like corporate Dems and corporate Dems hate their voters. Regular people strugging to pay the bills and in danger of going bankrupt if they get ill don't want corruption and enless enrichment of insurance companies, military industry complex etc. Biden won because Trump is insanely bad. This was an anti-Trump election. Like Kyle Kulinski says, a rusty bucket filled with vomit would have won Trump. Since this election was this close, Biden is not much better than a rusty bucket filled with vomit, practically a moderate Republican who is against medicare for all in the middle of a pandemic while 80-90 % of Democratic base is for medicare for all. If Biden was campaigning for the economic populism he could have won over 400 electoral votes.

1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

drogulus

Quote from: JBS on November 14, 2020, 01:34:15 PM
1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.


     In order to succeed Dems have to enact programs that can rebuild the economy. For decades neglect has lowered US income from where it would have been if full output and employment had been the goal. The recovery from the GFC was a little more than half the typical recovery in the post war period.

     The most centrist thing Obama ever did was agree with Mitch on running out of dollars for the recovery. Not only wouldn't we spend dollars to boost the economy, we would "not have" them! Just imagine if Trump, Mitch, Nancy and Chuck all got together to tell Americans that not only would no dollars be spent to counter the pandemic crash, but that there weren't any to have, no spending or having either! Fortunately for the country we spent trillions of dollars this time without bothering much about not having them first, and just had them after we spent them.

     
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71 dB

Quote from: JBS on November 14, 2020, 01:34:15 PM
1)The Right wing party won those seats.
2) There was a candidate who campaigned on economic populism. He got slightly more than 70 million people who thought he was serious.  But he came in second to the guy you think is a moderate Republican.

1) Yes, because of social issues. Most Americans are (often without them realizing it themselves because of badly known labels) left-leaning on economic issues. About 2/3 of Americans support medicare for all. About 4/5 of Americans support $15 living wage and so on... If you support left-leaning economic policies you are left-leaning on those issues regardless of how much you identify yourself as right-leaning/Republican because of you family background or opinions about social issues or whatever reason. You might identify as a Republican because you are pro-life, even if you ALSO support many left-leaning policies. Corporate media misleading people in regards of labels and fearmongering about the left doesn't help. So lets see:

The Republicans offer social conservatism
The Democrats offer social liberalism
Neither of them offer economical populism

So, if you are into social conservatism AND economical populism, the Republicans offer you social conservatism while the Democrats offer you nothing. So, you vote for the Republicans even if you support medicare for all and living wage.

2) Because the corporate media kept fearmongering about Bernie and telling Biden is "most electable." Democratic voters really wanted Trump out, so many of them went behind the "safe bet", even when they politically agree with Bernie (80-90 % of democratic voters support medicare for all). According to Kyle Kulinski Bernie would have got a little bit more electoral votes than Biden. Bernie would have lost Arizona, which Biden won, but Bernie would have won some other states Biden lost such as Iowa and even Texas. Biden struggled with minorities while Bernie would have done better etc. There simply never was factual base for the claims that Biden is most electable. At best he is as electable as Bernie.
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71 dB

Quote from: Daverz on November 14, 2020, 12:43:10 PM
What "hard left" policies are you guys afraid of?

Well, everybody having healthcare is a very scary thought! People not going bankrupt because of medical bills? So horrible! Everybody having equal change in life regardless of background thanks to tuition free education? Horror! People enjoying the same standard of living than people in Nordic countries? So scary! They are only some of the happiest countries in the world! Being happy must be so horrible, worse then hell! They pay so much public taxes! Only paying public taxes is bad. Paying privite taxes is nothing even when insurance companies deny care because of whatever excuse. If people had acne 10 years ago they deserve to be denied care and die away! That way CEOs make more money and can buy more yachts! That's the most important thing in society! Rich getting richer! Nothing else matters! That's why left policies are so scary! According to them maximazing the happiness among all people matters! What a lunatic idea! Poor should SUFFER!!! IT'S YOUR FAULT you were born in poor family and didn't inherit 400 million from your dad! You should have chosen your parents better!
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Herman

I know what you mean, but really "Nordic" as a designation has a somewhat unfortunate history of late 19th century race ideology bleeding over into Nazism, and it doesn't help when it is suggested that the way "Nordic" people do things is superior.

Why not just say Scandinavian?

71 dB

Economic devide between Democratic and Republican voters got bigger: Pro-Biden counties make up 70% of the US economy
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71 dB

Quote from: Herman on November 15, 2020, 02:15:39 AM
I know what you mean, but really "Nordic" as a designation has a somewhat unfortunate history of late 19th century race ideology bleeding over into Nazism, and it doesn't help when it is suggested that the way "Nordic" people do things is superior.

Why not just say Scandinavian?

Because Finland is not part of Scandinavia ( =Sweden, Norway and Denmark). There is "extented Scandinavia" called Fennoscandia (or Fenno-Scandinavia) which includes Finland but also parts of Russia. Despite of historical connotations, the term Nordic countries means Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden and is therefor a precise collection of North European countries where social democratic policies have been very successful making them good models for other countries to "copy."
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MusicTurner

#218
This is a very old debate, what to include in the Scandinavian region, and not with a definitive answer. In many countries or everyday use, Finland and Iceland are included in the term, especially English-speaking countries. This also comprises, for example, really major travel guides like the Lonely Planet and Rough Guides.

"Nordic" as a term doesn't generally have unfortunate associations in the region locally,  however - only the Nazi ideology and its racist followers, such as the new Nordic Resistance Movement, have misused it; there's a 'Nordic Council' organization between the governments, for example, and long-lived ideas for a new 'Nordic Union' project.

71 dB

Quote from: MusicTurner on November 15, 2020, 02:41:07 AM
This is a very old debate, what to include in the Scandinavian region, and not with a definitive answer. In many countries or everyday use, Finland and Iceland are included in the term, especially English-speaking countries. This also comprises, for example, really major travel guides like the Lonely Planet and Rough Guides.

Well, in Finland Scandinavia is thought to include countries with Scandinavian languages: Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. Since Finnish language has hardly anything to do with those languages, Finns don't generally consider being part of Scandinavian countries, but part of Fennoscandia and Nordic countries.

Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Defined by Scandinavian languages.
Fennoscandia: Norway, Sweden, Finland and parts of Russia next to Finland. Defined geologically (peninsula)
Nordic countries: Island, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. Defined culturally and politically.
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