USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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T. D.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 11:17:27 AM
Trump is going to have to be escorted out of the White House. There's no question about it. Whatever 'legacy' he had before election night has now been rewritten. He will go down as one of the poorest presidents in our recent history. Hell, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce actually have better legacies than Trump and that's not saying much! ;D

Warren Gamaliel Harding is the benchmark I've always thought of. But his legacy is orders of magnitude better than CM's.

T. D.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:29:47 AM
T.D.  I had made a post after years due to some confusion at my end....but you might have missed it or not seen it yet.Since you have been following this closely, perhaps you know the answer?  I guess my other question, thinking about it, did the 'asking to have their votes rescinded' count?  Just trying to figure out what is going to happen from here (see the above comments/questions by yours truly)?

PD

An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Herman on November 20, 2020, 11:25:40 AM
I'm not just concerned about what these MI election officials will do, because it seems too late to do anything.

However, there is a lot of violence brewing under the surface in MI, and Trump wouldn't bat an eye at pushing these crazy rednecks over the edge, if he doesn't get his way.
I care because it says a lot 1) that the voters in Detroit have their votes counted and included; 2) what the higher powers-that-be try to do to the electoral college in their state (a constitutional scholar in Harvard thinks that even the meeting between the Republican House and Senate members and Pres. Trump is illegal); and 3) How more of this nonsense (to put it politely) is undermining people's belief in our democratic institutions and the whole electoral process and that their votes matter.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Todd

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:37:50 AM3) How more of this nonsense (to put it politely) is undermining people's belief in our democratic institutions and the whole electoral process and that their votes matter.


The 2020 election had the highest turnout ever, and the highest turnout rate since 1900.  The opposite of your fear just occurred.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Karl Henning

Quote from: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 11:34:23 AM
An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.

He'll lean on them, and the brain trust maintains that this is not an attempt to steal the election.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 11:34:23 AM
An article I saw yesterday cited Michigan officials definitively stating that there was no legal mechanism for them to rescind their votes.  Can't recall the source, but Bloomberg and CNBC are the sites I follow.

Here's another link. Google will yield more.

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/wayne-county-republicans-cant-rescind-their-votes-to-certify-election-says-secretary-of-state.html

But I fully expect Cheeto to challenge this.
Thanks!  That was a helpful link.  For what its worth, I don't subscribe to Bloomberg, so I can only read X-number of articles a month.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

T. D.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:44:32 AM
Thanks!  That was a helpful link.  For what its worth, I don't subscribe to Bloomberg, so I can only read X-number of articles a month.

PD

I used to work on Wall St., where Bloomberg is an essential data/information source. It's by far the best source of financial news, and I like their reporting in other areas. CNBC was a fixture on trading floors, and I suppose that's why I still follow them.
Bloomberg News subscription is around $35 / month, which I won't do. But I took advantage of a 3 months @ $0.99 per deal a couple of months ago, to get all the election stories.
They often run 3 month promotions, I've seen $0.99 and $1.99 per.
[Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever with Bloomberg News.]

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Todd on November 20, 2020, 11:40:12 AM

The 2020 election had the highest turnout ever, and the highest turnout rate since 1900.  The opposite of your fear just occurred.
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 11:49:18 AM
I used to work on Wall St., where Bloomberg is an essential data/information source. It's by far the best source of financial news, and I like their reporting in other areas. CNBC was a fixture on trading floors, and I suppose that's why I still follow them.
Bloomberg News subscription is around $35 / month, which I won't do. But I took advantage of a 3 months @ $0.99 per deal a couple of months ago, to get all the election stories.
They often run 3 month promotions, I've seen $0.99 and $1.99 per.
[Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever with Bloomberg News.]
Thank you for the information.   :)

Best wishes,

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Todd

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:53:12 AM
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD


On the evidence, Trump's divisive demeanor increased voter participation rather than depressed it. 

If voter turnout declines in 2022, it will not be because of Trump's post election proclamations.  Those will be forgotten by all but self-styled "high information" voters - ie, hyper-partisans.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Todd on November 20, 2020, 12:10:54 PM

On the evidence, Trump's divisive demeanor increased voter participation rather than depressed it. 

If voter turnout declines in 2022, it will not be because of Trump's post election proclamations.  Those will be forgotten by all but self-styled "high information" voters - ie, hyper-partisans.
No, I think that overall, more people came out because it they felt like it was an important election.  That said, perhaps some people were afraid of voter intimidation and didn't vote or for other reasons.  We'll never know.  That said, I still think that Pres. Trump has done a heck of a lot of harm to not just people's perceptions of whether or not their votes truly count, but about feeling like the election was rigged (despite no evidence), corruption in politics (by some on both sides)...and so much more.  We're a divided nation and his lies have only made things so much worse:  that's maybe the worst thing of all.

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

JBS

Quote from: T. D. on November 20, 2020, 10:26:29 AM
Yes, very much so. I have been following the story for days (they opposed certification, then approved, then tried to renege on approval under pressure from Cheeto Mussolini). Was alarmed at yesterday's announcement that the officials were being summoned to the WH.
I fear this will begin Cheeto's campaign to have Republicans switch states' Electoral votes.

For purposes of clarification, Trump did a phone call to the two local officials, but the men going to the WH today are the ranking members of the legislature. They are GOPs. Three of them were invited, but the Speaker of the House declined the invitation.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Todd

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 12:25:49 PMNo, I think that overall, more people came out because it they felt like it was an important election.


And the reason it was important was because of Trump.  It was a referendum on his presidency.  He lost.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on November 20, 2020, 11:53:12 AM
What I'm talking about is, in particular, is the post-election comments, lawsuits, continually stating that they have had the election stolen--without any proof, allegations of fraud, etc., etc....trying to have people's votes not count (from those who went to the polls, or mailed in or dropped off absentee votes--including from military members/spouses, and people concerned about Covid and not wanting to go to the polls)...the whole enchilada so to speak.

And who knows, maybe even more people would have either gone to the polls or mailed in ballots if Pres. Trump hadn't gone on and on about mail-in ballots = fraud?

PD

     The election was not a referendum on Trump's attempt to steal the election. The high turnout is not a sign that he'll fail. If he fails it will be because responsible people in the right places stopped him. That's what I think will happen. People will follow the law and that will be the end of it.

     But let's be clear that Trump had a plan prepared that might have worked if it had come down to a single state and a smaller number of votes.
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T. D.

As I thought. This is an interesting article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55020428

Can Trump overturn the election result?

...
As doors to remaining in office slam shut, the president appears to be shifting strategies for flipping the election results from a longshot legal one to a longer-shot political gambit.

A step-by-step guide to Trump's strategy
Here's what he may hope to do:

Block the vote-certification process in as many states as possible, either through lawsuits or by encouraging Republican officials to object
Convince Republican-controlled legislatures in states Biden narrowly won to dismiss the results of the popular vote as corrupted by widespread fraud
Have the legislature then award their state's Electoral College votes, which are cast by "electors" on 14 December, to Trump instead of Biden
Do that in enough states - Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, for instance - to pull Trump from his current total of 232 electoral votes past the winning 269-vote mark
Even pulling Biden from 306 votes might work, because then the election would be decided in the House of Representatives, where even though it's controlled by the Democrats, Trump would have an advantage due to some arcane rules


...

SimonNZ

#435
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 20, 2020, 11:17:27 AM
Trump is going to have to be escorted out of the White House. There's no question about it. Whatever 'legacy' he had before election night has now been rewritten. He will go down as one of the poorest presidents in our recent history. Hell, James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce actually have better legacies than Trump and that's not saying much! ;D

I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

-

Jill Lepore in the New Yorker:

Will Trump Burn the Evidence?
How the President could endanger the official records of one of the most consequential periods in American history.


^and there's also lots of fascinating info about what became of presidential records through the 19th century in that piece, and of same in the Reagan-Clinton era.


Over the last couple of years I've found historian Jill Lepore to be one of the most intelligent and articulate voices in the compare-and-contrast of the Trump presidency with the norms and practices and attitudes to foundational documents of previous generations.

But I know her mainly from lectures and podcasts and now want to start on her books, particularly her 1000-page These Truths. Has anyone here read it? Or any of her other works?


drogulus


     The Michigan legislators who met with Trump say they heard nothing that would change the results of the election. In Georgia Hideous Demon Gov. Kemp has decided to follow the law.

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Mirror Image

#437
Quote from: SimonNZ on November 20, 2020, 02:11:59 PM
I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

I wouldn't put anything past him. Just when you think he couldn't go lower, he does and brags about it: "I'm the greatest. I really am. They thought they had me, but I showed them. I mean has there ever been a president who has done I've done? No, nobody has done what I've done. They really haven't."

JBS

Quote from: SimonNZ on November 20, 2020, 02:11:59 PM
I heard someone half-joke that he'd probably stage his own alternate-venue "real" inauguration for himself on inauguration day and I felt that, yes, that would be perfectly in keeping with everything else from the last five years.

-

Jill Lepore in the New Yorker:

Will Trump Burn the Evidence?
How the President could endanger the official records of one of the most consequential periods in American history.


^and there's also lots of fascinating info about what became of presidential records through the 19th century in that piece, and of same in the Reagan-Clinton era.


Over the last couple of years I've found historian Jill Lepore to be one of the most intelligent and articulate voices in the compare-and-contrast of the Trump presidency with the norms and practices and attitudes to foundational documents of previous generations.

But I know her mainly from lectures and podcasts and now want to start on her books, particularly her 1000-page These Truths. Has anyone here read it? Or any of her other works?



It seems to have the reputation of being an updated version of Howard Zinn. But I have enough unread books on hand that I am in no rush to add a book of that size to the pile.

I did read this a few years ago, and remember it being well done.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Herman

#439
I think what you're seeing this week is that parts of the senior GOP-ers are getting tired of Trump.

He has delivered the tax cuts and hundreds of judges; the usual recipe of letting a D president clean up the mess (in this case rampant Covid and economic disaster) now kicks in.

Trump's idea of letting a washed up loony like Giuliani be his public face kind of sealed it for these folks. In the eyes of old-style Republicans neither Trump nor Giuliani are really Republicans. They're New York people. Bizarre circus animals, married x times over, tabloid show people and totally incapable of acting the trademark GOP gravitas. Cruz isn't too great at it either, but at least he tries.

The Trump Giuliani show has become such a disgusting spectacle, the GOP is eager for this to be over, too.

The next thing is the influence Trump will exert over the GOP in 2020 - 2024.

It could be huge.