USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 22, 2020, 06:41:13 AM

Well, he may have secretly wanted to be king, you see.  And there was the Whiskey Rebellion kerfuffle.  And his general lack of ability and intelligence - if some of his famous subordinates were and are to be believed.

Here's a good quote from 1796:

Nihil novum sub sole...

QuoteBut Trump and the hyperpartisanship of the here and now are unique and special and are clear and present dangers to the survival of the republic itself.  Don't you ever forget it.

...except Trump.







Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

     From an interview on NPR;

FADEL: So remind our listeners why you say this is an example of fascist behavior.

STANLEY: So fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by minorities, liberals and immigrants. He represents the cities as corrupt, filled with foreigners and disease, and the heartland as the true nation that he represents. And then he takes over a political party, transforms them into a cult of the leader and says only he can deal with the problem.


     As a general description this should suffice. It's not custom designed to fit Trump, it's how fascist behavior has been understood since long before Trump appeared. There are reasons to object that Trump doesn't make the cut. One is the lack of a manifesto, another is that the government is not fascist notwithstanding Trump's efforts. I leave it up to my fellow pseudos to decide.
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Florestan

#482
Quote from: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 06:53:05 AM
     From an interview on NPR;

FADEL: So remind our listeners why you say this is an example of fascist behavior.

STANLEY: So fascism is a cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by minorities, liberals and immigrants.

Bah humbug! There were no minorities and immigrants in Italy when Mussolini took power.

QuoteHe represents the cities as corrupt, filled with foreigners and disease, and the heartland as the true nation that he represents.

Bah humbug! Mussolini appealed --- quite succesfully --- to both city and countryside, and if anything he promoted modernist architecture of the kind one still sees in Rome and other big cities, not in any countryside. And the Fascist intellectuals were all urbanites.

QuoteAnd then he takes over a political party, transforms them into a cult of the leader and says only he can deal with the problem.

Bah humbug! Mussolini started as a Socialist but he never took over that party, he created his own.

   
QuoteAs a general description this should suffice.

Only for people completely ignorant of history.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 22, 2020, 06:53:05 AM
   There are reasons to object that Trump doesn't make the cut. One is the lack of a manifesto, another is that the government is not fascist notwithstanding Trump's efforts.

Anyone with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could rightly argue that Caesar, Louis XIV or Napoleon Bonaparte exhibited traits that can be regarded as Fascist. Nobody with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could seriously claim that they were Fascist.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:37:39 AM
Agreed. He'd better spend it educating himself on what Fascism really is.


It is not uncommon for people to fixate on what are ultimately distractions.  For some, it's Fascism.  For some, it's Communism.  For some it's Antifa.  For some, it's Proud Boys, et al.  For some, it's Russia.  For some, it's radical Islamic terrorism.  For some, it's immigration.  And yet the republic lumbers on, occasionally making "progress", sometimes regressing, and often pummeling small, weak countries.  Even Orange Man could not change that.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#485
Quote from: Todd on November 22, 2020, 07:42:45 AM

It is not uncommon for people to fixate on what are ultimately distractions.  For some, it's Fascism.  For some, it's Communism. 

Much to the shock and horror of Herman, I'll say that if given a retrospective choice between living in Mussolini's Italy or in Ceaușescu's Romania I'd choose the former without hesitation; and better still I'd choose Trump's USA over both.

For the record, in Riomanian context I have always called myself a liberal and I've always voted for a party called National Liberal Party or for a coalition wherein this party took part (except when they were allied with the Social-Democrats, when I voted a party called Liberal Democratic Party --- so I was still a liberal voter). I've been called a leftist by conservatives and a reactionary by progressives. I guess I'm a centrist. Actually, I know I am a centrist.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 22, 2020, 07:42:45 AM
often pummeling small, weak countries. 

I wonder which will be the next such country?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 08:23:26 AM
I wonder which will be the next such country?


There are so many to choose from!  And no country or combination of countries can stop the USA from engaging in unilateral military action against small, weak countries.  Were I to bet, I'd say some hapless African country, though the Greater Middle East needs a good bombing on a regular basis.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#488
Quote from: Todd on November 22, 2020, 08:30:24 AM
Were I to bet, I'd say some hapless African country,

Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?

No, wait, it's been actually Bush II's.

No, wait, it's been actually.... oh, my! Oh, my! Am I a Trumpist for saying Obama's?


Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Sterna

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 08:38:43 AM
Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?

No, wait, it's been actually Bush II's.

No, wait, it's been actually.... oh, my! Oh, my! Am I a Trumpist for saying Obama's?

Why bother?

Trump is history.
Bush II is history.
Obama is history.

Zeus

#490
Here's a simple theory explaining why GOP candidates did relatively well, even while Trump was handed a solid defeat.

If you give people three choices, there's a natural tendency to take the middle choice.  For example, if a store offers three headphones of increasing quality, one for $199, one for $399, and one for $599, then more than a third will take the middle choice.  Simplistic I know, but bear with me.

If in the political landscape, you have three choices
1) Democrats
2) Republicans
3) Batshit Crazy Trumpites
then, facing these choices, ordinary Republicans might seem like a safe middle-ground choice.

In fact, electors made several choices at once.  But many apparently split their ticket – against Trump, but for more reasonable Republicans down-ticket.  Simple choice theory offers an explanation why.

Don't know if I believe this or not, but it's an interesting thought.
"There is no progress in art, any more than there is progress in making love. There are simply different ways of doing it." – Emmanuel Radnitzky (Man Ray)

Florestan

Quote from: Sterna on November 22, 2020, 08:50:38 AM
Why bother?

Trump is history.
Bush II is history.
Obama is history.

Correct, but Trump directly impacted the USA history only; Bush II and Obama (and Clinton foir that matter) directly impacted the history of other countries as well.





Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 08:38:43 AM
Such as Lybia, which is nowadays all but destroyed following Trump's orders and actions?


See, Libya can be counted as both part of Africa and the Greater Middle East.  That doubles its chances.  Sucks to be Libya.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

#493
Quote from: Todd on November 22, 2020, 09:14:10 AM

See, Libya can be counted as both part of Africa and the Greater Middle East.  That doubles its chances.  Sucks to be Libya.

What puzzles me, though, is why the Socialist Obama attacked the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Florestan, as another example of there being nothing new under the sun, here are two instructive quotes, from over two centuries apart:

Quote from: Burleigh, in the Connecticut Courant, 1800Mr. Jefferson wishes to destroy the constitution of the United States.

Quote from: Jill Lepore, in The New Yorker, November 23, 2020The Trump Presidency nearly destroyed the United States.

Perhaps one of these quotes is true.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 07:34:42 AM
Anyone with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could rightly argue that Caesar, Louis XIV or Napoleon Bonaparte exhibited traits that can be regarded as Fascist. Nobody with a modicum of historical awareness and knowledge could seriously claim that they were Fascist.



     Quite so, and no one does. Fascism is a reaction to the political trends of modernity, particularly liberalism and the threat it poses to tradition. Caesar comes closest as a precursor though there was nothing liberal about the oligarchy he challenged. He was a tribune though, and one sees why fascists admired him.

     The fascist category is one of family resemblance and not one of rigid designation. Mussolini didn't adopt an overtly antisemitic program until the '30s, Hitler's was from the outset. Once you get past their commonalities like autocracy, hatred of liberalism, nationalism and appeal to violence against internal enemies one finds differences in aesthetics, for example.

     Where the scholarly discussion irks me somewhat is I get the impression that Trump's ambitions are treated as though his inability to realize them proves they don't count. Nor is there much said about how Trump should be distinguished from what he's fighting against, as though nothing more should be said than what it isn't.

     
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SimonNZ

#496
Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2020, 02:14:55 AM
Trump is already history. This de facto situation will be established de jure on December 12, 2020 and will be effective January 20, 2021. Anyone who after that will still be commenting on what Trump does says and twitters will prove ipso facto that TDS is real.

I seem to recall some months back when people were saying Trump is the kind of person who would refuse to concede the election you felt this was preposterous, described it as TDS, and demanded that if and when Trump did loose and bowed out graciously that everyone here had to admit they suffered from TDS.

If people are still commenting on Trump after Jan 20 it will be because he will still be trying to sow dissent and division and subvert democratic institutions. And because the last five years need studying.

drogulus

Quote from: SimonNZ on November 22, 2020, 02:46:38 PM
And because the last five years need studying.

     He not a fascist so there's nothing to study. It's one of those "nothing ever" changes.
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drogulus


     To be clear, I'm amenable to using a different word for the Trumpist phenomenon. If Trumpism is sufficiently different from historical examples then we should try to understand it according to the differences instead of dismissing it as derangement of some kind. If the support of American fascists isn't enough to make Trump one of their own, we still have to figure out why they support him. I think we've done that. If Trump isn't a "real" fascist, he'll do until a real one comes along.
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Karl Henning


If folks want to try to minimize the historical importance and moral disgrace of a US President who is a wannabe autocrat by casuistic squabbling over the word "fascist," yes they're dilly-dallying over a distraction.  Very Trumpian, incidentally
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot