USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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SimonNZ

Strange how prevalent this illogical argument is: that if Trump didn't succeed in doing something that proves he wasn't trying in the first place. That the efforts of those who battled Trump and stopped it from happening needn't have bothered in the first place because they ultimately succeeded thereby proving it was never necessary.

drogulus


     
Quote from: Todd on November 23, 2020, 01:49:31 PM


Last I saw, in the failing New York Times, Michigan certified the vote for Biden, so all the sound and fury was and is for nothing.


     If Trump stops fighting, the noise will die down.
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T. D.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-health-national-security-rob-portman-coronavirus-pandemic-ac923137dfb664e5c3a1923f52eebbad

WASHINGTON (AP) — The General Services Administration has ascertained that President-elect Joe Biden is the "apparent winner" of the Nov. 3 election. President Donald Trump, who had refused to concede the election, said Monday that he is directing his team to cooperate on the transition but is vowing to keep up the fight.

The move clears the way for the start of the transition from Trump's administration and allows Biden to coordinate with federal agencies on plans for taking over on Jan. 20.

An official said Administrator Emily Murphy made the determination after Trump efforts to subvert the vote failed across battleground states, most recently in Michigan, which certified Biden's victory Monday.

"Please know that I came to my decision independently, based on the law and available facts. I was never directly or indirectly pressured by any Executive Branch official—including those who work at the White House or GSA—with regard to the substance or timing of my decision," Murphy wrote in a letter to Biden.

Trump tweeted shortly after her letter was made public: "Our case STRONGLY continues, we will keep up the good... fight, and I believe we will prevail! Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same."

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE.

Karl Henning

Quote from: SimonNZ on November 23, 2020, 02:04:51 PM
Strange how prevalent this illogical argument is: that if Trump didn't succeed in doing something that proves he wasn't trying in the first place. That the efforts of those who battled Trump and stopped it from happening needn't have bothered in the first place because they ultimately succeeded thereby proving it was never necessary.

It's of a piece with the "since the mugshots of those conspiring to kidnap the Governor of Michigan appear to be a bunch of knuckle-draggers, conspiring to kidnap the Governor of Michigan cannot be a crime worth our notice."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

drogulus

     

     At last, our time has come!

     
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milk

Quote from: Todd on November 23, 2020, 01:49:31 PM

I should like to see evidence that supports this.  Preferably, it would meet a standard rather higher than the evidence offered for his impeachment trial.

Last I saw, in the failing New York Times, Michigan certified the vote for Biden, so all the sound and fury was and is for nothing.

Maybe Trump's nefarious deeds in the Wolverine State can be added to the voluminous list of charges that can be brought in 2021, or whenever.
It's fine to be a stickler on these things. And then you stop short. But it'd be gaslighting to say Trum isn't doing damage. Millions of people live in a dangerous alternate reality where dark forces have outright stolen the election. Trum as nurtured this since the summer and uses it to further weaken the possibility of consensus on basic facts in America. Some republicans have gone along with this. He hasn't stolen the election, though he wants to. I'm not sure what you think. Sometimes you've seemed to intimate that this kind of chaos is good because it weakens the federal government. Maybe I've misunderstood you. It's a little frightening to me to have family members who are basically hysterical in their conspiracy world - one that trump has encouraged from the beginning. There are definitely negative consequences here. Ultimately, I find it much more interesting to argue about ideas but a swath of Americans are arguing about conspiracies. This is not good.   

Todd

#546
Quote from: milk on November 23, 2020, 04:24:22 PMBut it'd be gaslighting to say Trum isn't doing damage.

Trump has done damage.  In some cases, specifically pertaining to existing international security arrangements and mechanisms, such damage is badly needed.  Much more is needed.  But that will have to wait.  Depending on how one views other policies he has pursued - most of which are variants of existing Republican policy preferences - he can be said to have done damage to all manner of "liberal" shibboleths.  That is sometimes good, sometimes bad.  Mostly it is good.  One can argue that Trump eroded trust in the press, but the improvement in the financial condition of at least some news outlets contradicts that, and one would have to view a decrease in trust in the press in the broader context of decades long changes and a more splintered media environment, which Trump did not create.  I constantly see statements that Trump has eroded trust in democracy and democratic institutions, but the incontrovertible evidence regarding voter turnout and the nature of many races this year directly contradicts that.  Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.


Quote from: milk on November 23, 2020, 04:24:22 PMHe hasn't stolen the election, though he wants to. I'm not sure what you think.

I do not claim to know what Trump really wants.  No one on this forum knows that.  They believe certain things, though.  That's fine.  But belief is not fact.  Belief is not knowledge.  I think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 


Quote from: milk on November 23, 2020, 04:24:22 PMSometimes you've seemed to intimate that this kind of chaos is good because it weakens the federal government.

I have been very clear for many years that chaos and dysfunction that weakens the federal government is unambiguously good and should be encouraged at all times. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Quote from: milk on November 23, 2020, 04:24:22 PM
It's fine to be a stickler on these things. And then you stop short. But it'd be gaslighting to say Trum isn't doing damage. Millions of people live in a dangerous alternate reality where dark forces have outright stolen the election.

     The manly militia men who were supposed to play their part decided to spend more time with their families. It wasn't supposed to be that way. As a result of their treachery, Repubs were intimidated into obeying the law.
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drogulus

#548
     Trump tells us what he thinks. I don't see how "not knowing very much about it" applies. We are beyond reasonable doubt here. If his "American Carnage" had showed up on schedule it might have given his toadies the courage of their lack of convictions.

     I have a theory, something along the lines of a beauty contest process.  As the court cases collapsed Repubs began to think that other Repubs were thinking Trump was finished and may not protect them from the consequences of their evil deeds. It snowballed into a Repub hellscape of legality.

     It's maybe a little bit paranoid, but put yourself in the mind of a Repub who's not entirely on board with QAnon and trying to maintain bourgeois respectability.
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milk

#549
Quote from: Todd on November 23, 2020, 05:20:55 PM
Trump has done damage.  In some cases, specifically pertaining to existing international security arrangements and mechanisms, such damage is badly needed.  Much more is needed.  But that will have to wait.  Depending on how one views other policies he has pursued - most of which are variants of existing Republican policy preferences - he can be said to have done damage to all manner of "liberal" shibboleths.  That is sometimes good, sometimes bad.  Mostly it is good.  One can argue that Trump eroded trust in the press, but the improvement in the financial condition of at least some news outlets contradicts that, and one would have to view a decrease in trust in the press in the broader context of decades long changes and a more splintered media environment, which Trump did not create.  I constantly see statements that Trump has eroded trust in democracy and democratic institutions, but the incontrovertible evidence regarding voter turnout and the nature of many races this year directly contradicts that.  Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.


I do not claim to know what Trump really wants.  No one on this forum knows that.  They believe certain things, though.  That's fine.  But belief is not fact.  Belief is not knowledge.  I think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 


I have been very clear for many years that chaos and dysfunction that weakens the federal government is unambiguously good and should be encouraged at all times.
Thanks for the clarifications. I disagree with you on a few points here (voter turnout is not the only measure of democracies' health) but mostly it makes sense to me though, again, I don't desire all/most of the same political outcomes as you.  I understand that some voters disregarded his gory personality because of policy while others, living in some bizarro world, actually like him.   

drogulus


     It would be terrible if Trump managed to steal a low turnout election. Would it be better if turnout was high? I'm not sophisticated enough to see how.
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drogulus


     Conservative snowflake Bret Stephens has thoughts on Weimar America.

     Trump Contrives His Stab-in-the-Back Myth

In case certain readers think I'm making a comparison between Trump supporters and Nazis, let me emphasize that I am not. What I am saying is that this modern-day Dolchstosslegende, like surf pounding against a bluff, abets future demagogues by eroding public confidence in democratic institutions, until, unprotected, they collapse.

No comparison with the Weimar years is complete without noting that the republic wasn't just done in. It did a lot to do itself in, too, mostly through economic mismanagement. All the more reason to wish the Biden administration well as it navigates crises that now include some of the most disreputable opponents our own republic has ever known.


     All is forgiven for mentioning economic mismanagement.
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milk

How much of Trum's ugly ascendency is an outcome of social media? I'm still not seeing the good side of that either (although here I am typing away).

MusicTurner

#553
I've noted that this time Twitter, which in spite of its reputation can actually be a good and extremely updated news source as regards links to in-depth journalist stories or live reporting, including on-site videos, has become too flooded with propaganda-, extremist- or very simple-minded spamming, so that you'll struggle between 100s of tweets to find something of value there. Which is sad and generally corroding.

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 23, 2020, 05:20:55 PM
Trump will fade from memory over time, his unilateral actions will in some cases be reversed or altered - though in some cases they will not - and existing political institutions will survive and adapt.  The republic will survive. 

It often seems that Trump has created dueling cults of personality.  There are his avid followers, people who voted for him and believed him, but there are also his vociferous opponents, some of whom write and say hysterical things, and who attribute power to him, political or otherwise, that he simply does not possess.

This.

And related to the last paragraph: the polarization has become so sharp that the mere stating of facts contradicting, or expressing of opinions not in line with, anti-Trumpism automatically turns one into a Trumpist.

QuoteI think it is safe to believe Trump wanted to be reelected, and he has engaged in all manner of legal actions to maintain power, but unless someone has actual evidence that he has violated statutes - not norms, but statutes - in his actions, the complaints are merely ideological.  That's also fine, but it is not factual. 

And this.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

milk

Quote from: Florestan on November 24, 2020, 12:11:46 AM
This.

And related to the last paragraph: the polarization has become so sharp that the mere stating of facts contradicting, or expressing of opinions not in line with, anti-Trumpism automatically turns one into a Trumpist.

And this.
It's a beehive, as my friend said to me. No one can talk about anything anymore (aside from on this friendly forum). But I'm so glad for tump to be gone. He's made it worse for sure. And no one can match him for lies and hysterics.

Herman

Twitter has always been the worst.

Herman

Those testimonies in the Michigan hearings yesterday were intriguing.

I cannot tell if these were merely anecdotal or whether they pointed to systematic attempts by observers from the Republican party, to intimidate and harrass the volunteers counting the ballots. Getting too close, challenging every single ballot, deliberately going without a mask and shouting and breathing on the people counting the ballots.

There was this kid from UM Law School, who I had expected (based on his preppy hale looks) to be a Republican, who talked about this observer who shouted at him that he wasn't there to observe the law, but to do what the party had told him.

I'd like some more reporting on this behavior. If this kind of low jinks happened all over the country.

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: Herman on November 24, 2020, 02:11:58 AM
Those testimonies in the Michigan hearings yesterday were intriguing.

I cannot tell if these were merely anecdotal or whether they pointed to systematic attempts by observers from the Republican party, to intimidate and harrass the volunteers counting the ballots. Getting too close, challenging every single ballot, deliberately going without a mask and shouting and breathing on the people counting the ballots.

There was this kid from UM Law School, who I had expected (based on his preppy hale looks) to be a Republican, who talked about this observer who shouted at him that he wasn't there to observe the law, but to do what the party had told him.

I'd like some more reporting on this behavior. If this kind of low jinks happened all over the country.
Yes, I'd like to know if/how/when/where these kind of things happened.  Looking at some footage on the Detroit Free Press's website, things were 'hairy' to say the least outside of at least one polling area.

Woke up to great news this morning:  DSA Emily Murphy has ascertained the election.  Copy here of the letter that she sent to President-Elect Joe Biden:  http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2020/images/11/23/gsa.biden.pdf

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Pohjolas Daughter

Just hearing a story on CNN now about dark money and ghost candidates who siphoned off votes to help other republicans win three positions in the Florida senate race.  It might not be illegal, but it certainly should be!

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/politics/florida-dark-money-mystery-invs/index.html

PD
Pohjolas Daughter