USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 24, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
It was fun to watch, especially with the thumping the rule of law gave Trump.

What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

Besides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

71 dB

#581
Quote from: Todd on November 24, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
Biden received 51.1% of the vote.  By definition, that is not a landslide, no matter how large the font.

Biden did not get the landslide he should have gotten against Trump. Biden should have won about 400 electoral votes against an incompetent fool, but he did not because the corporate Dems suck.
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Florestan

I'm generally not a partisan of death penalty but sometimes ny views on the matter are seriously challenged. For instance in this case:

Prosecutors say Bourgeois tortured, sexually molested, and then beat his two-and-a-half-year-old daughter to death. Court records say Bourgeois repeatedly beat the young girl and punched her in the face, whipped her with an electrical cord and beat her with a belt so hard that it broke. He also allegedly burned her feet with a cigarette lighter and hit her in the head with a baseball bat until her head swelled.

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:40:29 AM
I'm generally not a partisan of death penalty but sometimes ny views on the matter are seriously challenged. For instance in this case:

Prosecutors say Bourgeois tortured, sexually molested, and then beat his two-and-a-half-year-old daughter to death. Court records say Bourgeois repeatedly beat the young girl and punched her in the face, whipped her with an electrical cord and beat her with a belt so hard that it broke. He also allegedly burned her feet with a cigarette lighter and hit her in the head with a baseball bat until her head swelled.

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.

Who is this Bourgeois monster you are talking about? The worst Romanian person ever?
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Florestan

#584
Quote from: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 12:57:33 AM
Who is this Bourgeois monster you are talking about?

One of the three persons scheduled to be executed iin the USA in the next two months. (See post #585)


Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

MusicTurner

Death penalty also illustrates the brutality of the surrounding society implementing it, cf. China etc. I don't know how many American movies I've seen pointing to the sadistic death of various low- and high-level criminals, or undefined exotic natives, as a very deserved one ...

Que

#586
Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:40:29 AM

I do wonder if such a person really deserves to be fed and clothed and have his health attended at the expenses of the public in the hope that someday he'll turn into a normal human being worth being reintegrated in the society.

I think we'll have to accept that reintegration is not for everyone, but that doesn't mean we have to kill them.
In the Netherlands life is life (incarceration till you die) and the incarnation of the criminally insane can be prolonged indefinitely (and in many cases is)

There is that infamous statement of George W Bush in which he said that he would in favour of abolishing the death penalty if he thought ever an innocent persont had been put to death. Of course, there have been several cases of innocent put to death. In most cases later proven by DNA tests, or by dismissal of purposely fabricated evidence or false testimonies.

Q

71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:10:51 AM
What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

I never claimed all of this will happen, but Trump's actions moved the US a bit closer to a place like this. Instead of 100 yards away, the US is 94 yards away. If the US presidents keep moving the country to this direction, someday it becomes a banana republic. According to TYT there was a 1-10 % chance Trump manages to do a coup. The problem of this all is it normalizes non-democratic rethoric. From now on it is "normal" for the president of the US to attack journalists and demand millions of votes not to be counted. Democracy will erode if it is not protected, and Trump defenitely did not protect democracy. All we can hope is Biden can move the country back to where it was before Trump.

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:10:51 AMBesides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.

The US has had a two-tier system of law. Mild sentences for the rich, harsh sentences for the poor/non-white.
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71 dB

#588
Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 01:02:52 AM
One of the three persons scheduled to be executed iin the USA in the next two months. (See post #585)

Oh. Thanks. Sorry, I have been lazy to read this thread in my efforts to engage less in the US politics.

EDIT:  Herman doesn't mention the names in his post #585
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Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 01:22:27 AM
Oh. Thanks. Sorry, I have been lazy to read this thread in my efforts to engage less in the US politics.

EDIT:  Herman doesn't mention the names in his post #585

No but --- I quote you --- it took me five seconds to find them on Google.  :)
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Florestan

#590
Quote from: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 01:19:50 AM
Trump's actions moved the US a bit closer to a place like this. Instead of 100 yards away, the US is 94 yards away. If the US presidents keep moving the country to this direction, someday it becomes a banana republic. According to TYT there was a 1-10 % chance Trump manages to do a coup.

Nonsense on stilts.

QuoteDemocracy will erode if it is not protected, and Trump defenitely did not protect democracy.

The POTUS is not the only protection democracy has in the USA. The judiciary is at least as important as the executive in this respect and as we see these days the former is even stronger than the latter. Also, the extreme federalism makes the demise of USA democracy highly improbable.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Fëanor

#591
Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 02:03:03 AM
...
The POTUS is not the only protection democracy has in the USA. The judiciary is at least as important as the executive in this respect and as we see these days the former is even stronger than the latter. Also, the extreme federalism makes the demise of USA democracy highly improbable.

The USA isn't in imminent danger of dictatorship;  it is fairly well protected by its constitution and "checks and balances" system, however that protection isn't impervious.

As for the judiciary, let's remember "Article II of the U.S. Constitution provides that federal judges are appointed by the President, with the "advice and consent" of the Senate. Presidents generally appoint federal judges who share their political beliefs and philosophy." see for example ... http://adacourse.org/courtconcepts/intro.html  When the Senate is compliant with the President as in case of the current body, then the judiciary will potentially become highly politicised.

Donald Trump isn't a "fascist" per se;  he isn't ideological.  However Trump is a populist and would-be authoritarian;  implicitly if not explicitly he believes in the "unitary executive" theory:  see ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory  He has amply demonstrated this by appointing Cabinet and advisor based on loyalty and willingness to do his will, rather than on competence -- apparently the includes his Attorney General, speaking of the judiciary.

Probably the greatest attack on democracy by Trump is his fostering of the "stolen election" mythology which, though totally baseless, undermines confidence in the elections process -- we need to consider that 100+ million Americans believe in this "big lie".

"It can't happen here" is not a mistake Americans should make.  For decades I have believe that by far the greatest threat to American democracy and hence the American way of life, is from the right-leaning populist authoritarianism, not from Communism, socialism, nor the "far left".  I've never be more convinced of this than recently.

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:10:51 AMwhat I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.


Yes, of course it is. 

What we've just experienced, and continue to experience though to a lesser degree, is sensationalist press coverage misrepresenting the power of the presidency and the weakness of other institutions, and doing so on a repeated, daily (hourly) basis, to the point that the "news" resembles nothing less than political propaganda.  A good chunk of people are so blinded by partisanship and ideology, that they believe the stories and begin spinning more fanciful yarns of their own.  Eventually, we witnessed people proclaiming that the US is a banana republic and that Trump would steal the election and serve multiple terms, not as a joke, but with complete and nervous earnestness, over and over. 

All the while, from day one of Trump's presidency, existing institutions continued to function.  Congress passed precious little meaningful legislation - which they do with every administration.  Courts ruled against Trump's actions from the get-go - which they do with every administration.  State and local leaders refused to follow presidential mandates - which they do with every administration.  The main difference was the ubiquity and sensationalism of the press coverage.

It apparently remains difficult for many people to remember the power of the presidency, as concerns about the fate of the republic inevitably center on the president.  The president has the power to literally destroy another country on command.  The president cannot order a stop sign installed at the end of my street.  And then people on the left conveniently forget that historically, in the US, the left has been even more set on expanding the power of the presidency, starting no later than Wilson.  The executive branch should be weakened substantially.  That is the best way to prevent an overly powerful executive.  The opposite will be advocated starting on January 20th, 2021.

Yes, I suppose it could happen here.  Whatever it is.  And depending on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

milk

#593
Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 12:10:51 AM
What's even funnier is how many people here see Trump's "Fascist" presidency as evidence that the USA has become a banana republic, when in fact the last four years have proved exactly the opposite, namely that the USA is not a banana republic. In a banana republic Trump would have been proclaimed president for life by the parliament and confimed as such by a national referendum; opposition politicians, journalists, bloggers etc would have been killed, jailed or (self-) exiled; any trace of a free press would have disappeared; the judiciary would have turned into a branch of the executive, taking orders (and obeying them unconditionally) directly from Trump; the economy would have been mismanaged and ruined; most people would have barely made it from day to day; and an armed clandestine opposition movement would have started a civil war, possibly with USA backup and financing. Of course, none of these happened in the USA during Trump's "Fascist" presidency, better said Trump did not even try to achieve them, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary notwithstanding. Now, if he didn't try because he did not want them, then he is not a true Fascist; if he didn't try because he feared legal consequences, then he is still not a true Fascist, because a true Fascist would have taken seriously the Fascist lema "Vivere pericolosamente!" and taken his chances. This is what Mussolini, a true Fascist, did with the March on Rome: he gambled and won.

Besides, if someone like Trump had been really able to damage and render effectiveless the rule of law in, and the democratic institutions of, the USA then they wouldn't have been worth much to begin with. But that's obviously not the case. The rule of law has been up and running during Trump's "Fascist" presidency and lost no opportunity to give him the middle finger. And if he will persist till the end in his misguided stubborness it might even give him a nice pair of handcuffs and a nicely dressed police escort --- and as I said before, that would really make my day because it'll be the ultimate evidence for what I've maintained all these four years, namely that the USA has never been anything else than a constitutional republic ruled by law.
It's a bit of a straw man. I doubt most critics in this vein were saying this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. There were regulations put into place after Nixon and perhaps they need updating. Trump mixed his business with government to some degree, put his businesses into a practically meaningless blind trust, had government officials revolving through his admin in a whimsical way, he had inexperienced and unqualified family around him as advisors, etc. There's stuff like that that made people say, "oh, he's acting from the playbook of a tin-pot dictator." I agree that it's a lot more to do with his personality and that he was constrained by a system that mostly "works." Trum wanted to choose his electorate rather than the way it worked out according to the system: The electorate didn't choose him. However, by vomiting a constant stream of lies and bringing along a coterie of liars, he convinced millions of dummies that he only lost because of fraud. The republicans still want to pick their electorate by pushing the fraud narrative and they tried to influence the system to do it. Trump ginned up the conspiracy by getting his voters to vote in-person and repubs had those votes counted first. Trump was lying about how mail-ins were fraud votes months back in the hope of tarnishing the legitimacy of the process and altering the wishes of the electorate. It didn't work this time. Maybe it's all about fundraising and keeping an hysterical base of devotees to con, fund his legal battles or draw on to support a future run. No, he's not a fascist and he didn't turn the U.S. into the movie Bananas. He did act like that and it's a mystery whether he believes what comes out of his own mouth as it's clear his white house staff cannot possibly believe his nonsense.       

Todd

Progressives reveal their love of and unending desire for expanded executive authority:  Climate Groups Prod Biden to Bolster Kerry by Declaring Crisis

Quote from: Ari NatterInvoking a climate emergency could give Biden the authority to circumvent Congress and fund clean energy projects, shut down crude oil exports, suspend offshore drilling and curtail the movement of fossil fuels on pipelines, trains, and ships, according to a research note by consulting firm ClearView Energy Partners.

Unbounded executive authority unhampered by Congress is apparently good now.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

Quote from: milk on November 25, 2020, 05:31:59 AM
It's a bit of a straw man. I doubt most critics in this vein were saying this. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. There were regulations put into place after Nixon and perhaps they need updating. Trump mixed his business with government to some degree, put his businesses into a practically meaningless blind trust, had government officials revolving through his admin in a whimsical way, he had inexperienced and unqualified family around him as advisors, etc. There's stuff like that that made people say, "oh, he's acting from the playbook of a tin-pot dictator." I agree that it's a lot more to do with his personality and that he was constrained by a system that mostly "works." Trum wanted to choose his electorate rather than the way it worked out according to the system: The electorate did choose him. However, by vomiting a constant stream of lies and bringing along a coterie of liars, he convinced millions of dummies that he only lost because of fraud. The republicans still want to pick their electorate by pushing the fraud narrative and they tried to influence the system to do it. Trump ginned up the conspiracy by getting his voters to vote in-person and repubs had those votes counted first. Trump was lying about how mail-ins were fraud votes months back in the hope of tarnishing the legitimacy of the process and altering the wishes of the electorate. It didn't work this time. Maybe it's all about fundraising and keeping an hysterical base of devotees to con, fund his legal battles or draw on to support a future run. No, he's not a fascist and he didn't turn the U.S. into the movie Bananas. He did act like that and it's a mystery whether he believes what comes out of his own mouth as it's clear his white house staff cannot possibly believe his nonsense.       

    Trump thought he could steal an election using propaganda about his opponent stealing it as one of the tools. It's right out of the handbook of "let's not call them" fascists and unaffiliated thugs.

     Why is it not apparent that the US system is weaker and more vulnerable to subversion that was thought a few years ago, and that Trump didn't create the cracks but exploited them? The Biden administration has a big job of building and repairing, and one area is the election process itself.

     The good news we can take from the election is that under very difficult conditions the huge expansion of mail voting was a great success. Recounts and audits have revealed that it's been accurate and has given us a means to allow very high voter participation with safety and the highest level of security. That's a big healthy part of the system to improve on.

Quote from: Todd on November 25, 2020, 05:38:57 AM
Progressives reveal their love of and unending desire for expanded executive authority:  Climate Groups Prod Biden to Bolster Kerry by Declaring Crisis

Unbounded executive authority unhampered by Congress is apparently good now.

     Congress should exercise its authority if it doesn't want the executive to fill the void. If Congress ignores its responsibilities the void is filled in a "not new under the sun" way.
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71 dB

Quote from: Florestan on November 25, 2020, 01:59:13 AM
No but --- I quote you --- it took me five seconds to find them on Google.  :)

I did Google the name and it gave me rubbish, because I did not know the context:

bourgeois
/ˈbʊəʒwɑː/
adjective
belonging to or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.
"a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
synonyms: middle-class, property-owning, propertied, shopkeeping, conventional, traditional, conservative, conformist, ordinary, commonplace, provincial, parochial, suburban, small-town, parish-pump

noun
a bourgeois person.
"a self-confessed and proud bourgeois"
synonyms: member of the middle class, property owner


Googling "Bourgeois death penalty" gives better results, but needs better knowledge of the context which I did not have, because you did not make it clear your post was related to Herman's infamous post #585.
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Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
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drogulus

#597
     Millions face benefits and evictions cliff as Congress remains stalled on relief talks

     Who's holding a gun to Mitch's head to make him ignore the greatest economic crisis since the GD? Why would anyone waste brain cells on "unbounded executive authority"? If that authority was unbounded Trump could spend what it takes to keep people in their homes with food on the table until the all clear sounds. He probably wouldn't, but he can't. Biden won't have unbounded authority either.

     Progressives don't have a separate position on the limits of executive authority that isn't widely held across the spectrum. My view is that "use it or lose it" generally applies, as it does with the War Powers Act.
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71 dB

Quote from: drogulus on November 25, 2020, 07:07:14 AMWho's holding a gun to Mitch's head to make him ignore the greatest economic crisis since the GD?

Nobody. You have to hold a gun to Mitch's head to make him care about regular people.  :P
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

Florestan

Quote from: 71 dB on November 25, 2020, 06:57:37 AM
I did Google the name and it gave me rubbish, because I did not know the context:

bourgeois
/ˈbʊəʒwɑː/
adjective
belonging to or characteristic of the middle class, typically with reference to its perceived materialistic values or conventional attitudes.
"a rich, bored, bourgeois family"
synonyms: middle-class, property-owning, propertied, shopkeeping, conventional, traditional, conservative, conformist, ordinary, commonplace, provincial, parochial, suburban, small-town, parish-pump

noun
a bourgeois person.
"a self-confessed and proud bourgeois"
synonyms: member of the middle class, property owner


Googling "Bourgeois death penalty" gives better results, but needs better knowledge of the context which I did not have, because you did not make it clear your post was related to Herman's infamous post #585.

I googled "death sentences lame duck", ie keywords from the 585 post.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini