USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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drogulus

#640
Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 12:15:07 PM
;D  ;D ;D

And lo and behold:

When I hear Europe I tend to think EU.  Are there forces within EU that oppose USA and NATO?

     What's the Romanian view of NATO and the opposition? I don't want to implant 'Murican ideas, so tell me what Romanians think about NATO missiles there. Why don't you protest that opposition is a fiction promoted by US warmongers? You know best what the situation is. It's your damn country, after all.
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 12:33:55 PM
     What's the Romanian view of NATO and the opposition? I don't want to implant 'Murican ideas, so tell me what Romanians think about NATO missiles there.

Romania is one of the staunchest supporters and allies of the USA, regardless of who is POTUS at any given time, and sees NATO as crucial to her security. NATO missiles are more than welcome. There is virtually no opposition to USA and NATO.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 12:39:12 PM
Romania is one of the staunchest supporters and allies of the USA, regardless of who is POTUS at any given time, and sees NATO as crucial to her security. NATO missiles are more than welcome. There is virtually no opposition to USA and NATO.

     After exhaustive research over minutes I think what you say is true. That implicitly answers the opposition (pseudo) question, does it not?
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 12:44:25 PM
     After exhaustive research over minutes I think what you say is true. That implicitly answers the opposition (pseudo) question, does it not?

Once again: when I hear about Europe, the first thing that comes to my mind is not Russia but EU. I really don't need to be lectured about what Russia means in terms of geopolitics and security threats.

My question still stands unanswered: are there forces within EU opposed to USA and NATO? I know the answer. Do you?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

#644
Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 12:50:05 PM
Once again: when I hear about Europe, the first thing that comes to my mind is not Russia but EU. I really don't need to be lectured about what Russia means in terms of geopolitics and security threats.

My question still stands unanswered: are there forces within EU opposed to USA and NATO? I know the answer. Do you?

     Excellent, I didn't think you needed a lecture on Russia so I didn't bother. That was my point. We don't have to impose US ideas and it would be foolish to try.

     The EU is more opaque to US based Big Brains than NATO. Trumpist hostility to the EU as playing the US for suckers on trade has been in the news. As for EU members opposing NATO I would like to know more. Regardless of what the French and Germans say about "go it alone" I don't think they really want to do that. It's a reaction to Trumpist hostility, though I think it has dawned on them that they need to be more self reliant.

     Oh, it just occurred to me that you might be referring to Poland and Hungary.
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 26, 2020, 01:10:20 PM
     As for EU members opposing NATO I would like to know more. Regardless of what the French and Germans say about "go it alone" I don't think they really want to do that. It's a reaction to Trumpist hostility, though I think it has dawned on them that they need to be more self reliant.

     Oh, it just occurred to me that you might be referring to Poland and Hungary.

Poland is as staunchly pro-USA and pro-NATO as Romania. DItto the Baltic States. Hungary has moved towards Russia in the last years (for economic reasons) but Orban always stress that his country is part and parcel of NATO and EU.

The answer is this: while the degree of approval varies from country to country, there is no EU member state which opposes USA and NATO. However there are political parties that do that. The most nationally significant of them is the Rassemblement National in France. Incidentally, they have strong ties with Putin.

The talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets. There is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Herman

Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 11:34:31 PM


Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.

Erdogan and Trump got along like a house on fire.

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 11:34:31 PMThe talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets.

Empty and funny.


Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 11:34:31 PMThere is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

This is not true.  The US did not have to establish NATO in the first place, despite the standard post-war narrative.  The enlargement of NATO starting in 1999 is a long-term strategic blunder.  It is completely unnecessary.  It does nothing at all to enhance American security.  It makes the US less secure by expanding commitments to countries that have no strategic value, or economic value, to the US.  The beneficiaries are small, weak countries that understandably seek US protection.  For instance, what, pray tell, does North Macedonia offer the US?  Nothing.  Nothing at all.  Preferably, NATO should be returned to its 1991 boundaries.  If that is not possible, it should be dissolved.  Obviously, the destruction of the EU should be pursued whether or not NATO remains.  A splintered, destabilized Europe is preferable from a long-term strategic perspective.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 27, 2020, 04:51:18 AM
Preferably, NATO should be returned to its 1991 boundaries.  If that is not possible, it should be dissolved.  Obviously, the destruction of the EU should be pursued whether or not NATO remains.  A splintered, destabilized Europe is preferable from a long-term strategic perspective.

This is probably the only issue(s) on which your views and mine are irreconcilable, which is fine with me.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 05:04:10 AM
This is probably the only issue(s) on which your views and mine are irreconcilable, which is fine with me.


Considering the mighty North Macedonia only became a member of NATO this year, while the dastardly Trump was president, the man bent on all manner of perfidious deeds designed to help Russia as payback for successful collusion in the 2016 election, US dedication to NATO does not seem particularly strained at the present time.  I'm not sure how North Macedonia may be able to assist if there is a crisis in the Strait of Malacca, though.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 27, 2020, 05:26:30 AM

Considering the mighty North Macedonia only became a member of NATO this year, while the dastardly Trump was president, the man bent on all manner of perfidious deeds designed to help Russia as payback for successful collusion in the 2016 election, US dedication to NATO does not seem particularly strained at the present time.

That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.

Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 05:35:42 AM
That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.


The press and anti-Trump zealots got very excited about his refusal to offer vocal support for Article 5 of the NATO charter, almost as though the president is beholden to it as though it were part of the US Constitution.  Because, Russia.  Or something.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Fëanor

Quote from: Todd on November 26, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Yes, I ask.  Really.  What is a non-American Trump "supporter"?  What does that mean?  Does it mean they are fans, or something similar?  Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc).  Moral support is worthless.  Just as worthless as moral opposition.

At some point, one would think non-Americans would conclude that their dependence on the US in security and financial matters is a risk and would take action to change course.  But instead, if the President-elect is correct, and "America is Back"  - a phrase as intrinsically worthless as "America First" or "Make America Great Again" - and all manner of foreign leaders are more than happy to return to a variant of the status quo ante, then non-Americans haven't learned a thing.

I guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

If Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.  Just a personal opinion of course, but neglecting much less abuse allies doesn't seem to be an enlightened strategy even for the USA.

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 26, 2020, 11:34:31 PM
Poland is as staunchly pro-USA and pro-NATO as Romania. DItto the Baltic States. Hungary has moved towards Russia in the last years (for economic reasons) but Orban always stress that his country is part and parcel of NATO and EU.

The answer is this: while the degree of approval varies from country to country, there is no EU member state which opposes USA and NATO. However there are political parties that do that. The most nationally significant of them is the Rassemblement National in France. Incidentally, they have strong ties with Putin.

The talks about a unified European military are as empty as it gets. There is simply no alternative to NATO and neither the EU nor the USA can afford a lets-see-what-happens-if approach.

Otoh, there is another European country which poses a problem, though not yet a threat, to NATO: Turkey, whose relationships with the USA have been constantly deteriorating ever since Erdogan was elected and re-elected President.

     Sounds good to me. An American foreign policy bot would say pretty much the same thing.

Quote from: Florestan on November 27, 2020, 05:35:42 AM
That's what I've been maintaining all along: for all his harsh rhetoric, Trump did nothing to weaken NATO, or USA's committment to it --- and I'm not even sure he wanted to do anything.



     He failed because the state is too deep to crumple, and TrumPutinist policy is not US policy, and Trump has no coherent anti-vision to replace vision.
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drogulus

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BasilValentine

Quote from: Todd on November 26, 2020, 10:50:08 AM
Non-Americans cannot [legally] support American politicians in any real-world way (money, campaigning, voting, etc). 

Note the amendment ^ ^ ^. Of course they can. it's easy if those Americans own businesses with foreign customers. Want to put money in Trump's pocket? Simple as booking unused rooms in Trump International Hotel (ghost booking). Or through real estate transactions. 

Todd

Quote from: Fëanor on November 27, 2020, 06:58:10 AMI guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.


Quote from: Fëanor on November 27, 2020, 06:58:10 AMIf Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.

You obviously missed the point.  Rational world leaders should be looking for an alternative to the status quo ante.  But for the most part, they are not.  China and Russia, for very different reasons, are, though it will take until at least the 2030s to see if their efforts pay off.


Quote from: BasilValentine on November 27, 2020, 07:21:51 AMNote the amendment ^ ^ ^. Of course they can. it's easy if those Americans own businesses with foreign customers. Want to put money in Trump's pocket? Simple as booking unused rooms in Trump International Hotel (ghost booking). Or through real estate transactions.

Ah, yes, the Trump self-enrichment line of reasoning.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

drogulus

     The US can affect changes in the status quo in a cooperative manner. It's rational to do it that way. We don't need Trumpy Tantrum Time to continue. European geniuses will probably agree.

     If rational European leaders think NATO should be maintained, I don't see a downside. It will change. Russia will continue to drink itself to death and be dangerous until it does. It suffers the curse of resource dependence, and it doesn't exactly help that poison energy is declining.
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Fëanor

Quote from: Todd on November 27, 2020, 07:25:44 AM
Quote from: Feanor
I guess one might say that a non-American Trump supporter is one who comes to a forums such as this, with Americans as well as others, and advocates for Donald Trump.  A non-American Trump opponent, such as me, would be one who comes here to advocated against Trump whether on international or -- for that matter -- domestic US issues.

Support from non-Americans means nothing.  Opposition from non-Americans means nothing.

None are so deaf as refuse to listen.

Quote from: Todd on November 27, 2020, 07:25:44 AM
Quote from: Feanor
If Trump's "Make American Great Again" means, as it seems to in many cases, given the international community the middle finger, then it isn't hard to imagine why foreign leads would welcome the former status quo.  Just a personal opinion of course, but neglecting much less abuse allies doesn't seem to be an enlightened strategy even for the USA.

You obviously missed the point.  Rational world leaders should be looking for an alternative to the status quo ante.  But for the most part, they are not.  China and Russia, for very different reasons, are, though it will take until at least the 2030s to see if their efforts pay off.

I not sure that world leader are so oblivious to the evolving situation as you imply.  However Trump ought to have tried persuading rather than demeaning, bullying, and threatening.  Demeaning, bullying, and threatening isn't necessarily the best way to approach adversaries much less friends and allies.

BasilValentine

Quote from: Todd on November 27, 2020, 07:25:44 AM
Ah, yes, the Trump self-enrichment line of reasoning.

It's not a "line of reasoning." It's a direct refutation of your naive claim that "Non-Americans cannot support American politicians in any real-world way." Obviously, they can.