USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 12:03:32 PM
Romanian Criminal Code, Article 166.

Totalitarian State Propaganda

Any public propaganda in favor of establishing a totaliitarian state, by any means whatsoever, shall be punished by 6-month to 5-year prison and the interdict of some civil rights.

In the sense of this article, propaganda means systematically spreading or defending ideas, notions or doctrines intended to convince or attract new members.




     Wow, that sucks. You don't have to get kooky and give free speech rights to money, but can't you at least protect the speech rights of people? I'd be worried that the idea of totalitarian speech would be defined as what the government wants to prohibit.
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 12:18:35 PM
     Wow, that sucks. You don't have to get kooky and give free speech rights to money, but can't you at least protect the speech rights of people? I'd be worried that the idea of totalitarian speech would be defined as what the government wants to prohibit.

I do agree that the legalese sucks ---after all, democratically elected lawmakers are not the brightest of people --- but the idea is right. It covers Communists, Fascists and Nazists.

It's really easy for you, who have never ever experienced the consequences of any totalitarian propaganda, to dismiss such criminal code regulations as dangerous --- yet by  my personal experience I am absolutely sure that giving unconditional leeway to Communists, Fascists and Nazists would only aid and abet them. Crushing them in their craddle is the safest route to take --- just imagine Lenin being hanged immediately after stepping on Russian soil, or Hitler being hanged immediatelly after the Beer Hall Putsch.  ;D


Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 12:42:17 PM
I do agree that the legalese sucks ---after all, democratically elected lawmakers are not the brightest of people --- but the idea is right. It covers Communists, Fascists and Nazists.

It's really easy for you, who have never ever experienced the consequences of any totalitarian propaganda, to dismiss such criminal code regulations as dangerous --- yet by  my personal experience I am absolutely sure that giving unconditional leeway to Communists, Fascists and Nazists would only aid and abet them. Crushing them in their craddle is the safest route to take --- just imagine Lenin being hanged immediately after stepping on Russian soil, or Hitler being hanged immediatelly after the Beer Hall Putsch.  ;D




     If citizens don't want a free country it will never be easy to achieve it. It's not the ideas of Nazis that will undermine the future of a country, it's the ideas of a greater number of citizens who give up on freedom because it's dangerous. Free countries have one thing in common above all else. They permit the expression of unpopular ideas, even at some risk that they are dangerous. They don't emulate what they hate.

      In a country that has grown up with free speech people exercise their brain muscles to combat truly bad ideas. The country will withstand Trumpist hatemongering with no ban, and not even the suggestion of one. It must be disappointing to some Trumpists that no one is going to crush them or outlaw their propaganda or convert them to Islam. They even get to keep their guns!
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 01:20:22 PM
     If citizens don't want a free country it will never be easy to achieve it. It's not the ideas of Nazis that will undermine the future of a country, it's the ideas of a greater number of citizens who give up on freedom because it's dangerous. Free countries have one thing in common above all else. They permit the expression of unpopular ideas, even at some risk that they are dangerous. They don't emulate what they hate.

      In a country that has grown up with free speech people exercise their brain muscles to combat truly bad ideas. The country will withstand Trumpist hatemongering with no ban, and not even the suggestion of one. It must be disappointing to some Trumpists that no one is going to crush them or outlaw their propaganda or convert them to Islam. They even get to keep their guns!

All this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme. I do agree.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Todd

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:25:38 PMAll this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme.


There are people who think otherwise?
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Florestan

Quote from: Todd on November 30, 2020, 01:28:59 PM
There are people who think otherwise?

Yes there are. Lots of them. Look no further than GMG. Look no fuirther than drogulus.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:25:38 PM
All this blah blah blah amounts to this: no matter what the Criminal Code of Romania says, the USA during Trump's presidency has never been anything else than a constitutional republic where the rule of law reigned supreme. I do agree.

     Exactly so. The Deep State performed the way it was supposed to. The government of laws prevailed without the need to crush enemies. Repub election officials did their duty and resisted pressure to act corruptly. Nobody got banned or arrested for blatant lying.
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 01:41:14 PM
     Exactly so. The Deep State performed the way it was supposed to. The government of laws prevailed without the need to crush enemies. Repub election officials did their duty and resisted pressure to act corruptly. Nobody got banned or arrested for blatant lying.

And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:49:36 PM
And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?

      Trump wanted to undermine the government without having a manifesto to guide his actions, so on that point I agree Trump doesn't qualify as a fascist. His actions are for himself, and the movement he inspired is one of loyalty to him, though it has strong resemblance to fascism on the Big Lie front, the stab in the back myth, hostility to international cooperation, intellectuals and elites generally, hatred of immigrants and sadism as policy. How fascist Trump is depends on the weight you give to each factor.
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Florestan

Quote from: drogulus on November 30, 2020, 02:00:46 PM
      Trump wanted to undermine the government

Mind-reading.

Besides, Trump wanted his government to Make America Great Again. How could he have simultaneously done that and undermined the government is a mystery that future generations, wiser than ours, will have to ponder.

Quotethe stab in the back myth

The stab in the back myth is Nazi, not Fascist.

Quotehostility to international cooperation,

The Berlin-Roma-Tokyo axis? Heck, Marshal Antonescu adhered to it as well.

Quoteintellectuals and elites generally

Fascism was intellectually defined, promoted and supported by such luminariies and intellectual elites as Gentile, Marinetti, Malaparte, Pirandello, Pizetti, Ungaretti.

Quotehatred of immigrants

There were no immigrants in Italy before, during, or after Mussolini took power.

QuoteHow fascist Trump is depends on the weight you give to each factor.

Trump is no Fascist at all.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

drogulus


     The stab in the back myth was also used by Mussolini. Trump's mind is revealed by what he said and did. Alliances of ultranationalists don't fare well. Non cooperator states don't play nice with each other. Who knew?..... besides everyone, that is.

     Another factor is the support Trump received from avowed American fascists. I don't give them a veto but I do take their words and actions as strong evidence. I suppose their recognition might be a "next best thing" phenomenon.

     Another another factor is how scholars of fascism take the question seriously enough to consider evidence pro and con. No major political figure has been treated like that. It's not like leftists calling conservatives fascist, which scholars rightly ignore.

     Is Trump a fascist? 8 experts weigh in.

     If a consensus could be reached it would come out somewhere around "not quite".
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milk

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 01:49:36 PM
And yet Trump was a would-be Fascist dictator who sought to undermine the USA Republic, and succeeded at least with respect to elections. The USA constitutional republicanism is much weaker today than it was before Trump and the fact that he's been voted out of power is no evidence that he was not a Fascist. Be honest (if you can): ain't all this what you've been claiming all along?
As usual for me, I have a non-sequitur here as this back and forth seems to me to have gotten enough play here. I agree a little with both sides here: Yes, Tump has produced a lot of boring and drooling hysteria; most of my friends endlessly meme in this vein; I'm glad it's all over (said Captain Sensible). Yes, tump was often THAT BAD in his failings and his verbiage at least.
So here's my non sequitur: who is tump like exactly from history? He's definitely an entertainingly weird guy - for me, the type of guy who would never get within 10 feet of management over anything if not for being born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
I was listening to a description of MacArthur and I thought he sounded a lot like turmp (except for the empirical facts supporting that MacArthur possessed real genius): grandiose idea of himself (talked about himself in the third person), a diva, overdramatic, great PR (and his communiques were always about himself), rather divorced from reality, accused of being pathologically mentally unfit by his peers, etc.
Does this sound right?

drogulus


     Fascism may be the most entertaining political aberration. They make hate fun. The Communists are boring. They don't know how to par-tee.
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Herman

Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2020, 02:19:13 PM
Mind-reading.

Besides, Trump wanted his government to Make America Great Again. How could he have simultaneously done that and undermined the government is a mystery that future generations, wiser than ours, will have to ponder.



That's easy. That slogan was a lie, like pretty much everything. Hitler promised a Thousand Year Reich that only lasted ten years. But he kept on promising, because the little people need this.

The problem here is you have this need to believe the big man (I mean Trump); the same problem occurred with the GMG-er currently conducting his own psycho-analysis on another thread: if you can't conceive of a con-man telling a lie; if you want to take everything at face value, you're the con-man's mark.

Herman

Other than this there is some heavy indulgence in "but Trump did not make it" so you can't say he has overwhelmning authoritarian leanings.

As has been mentioned before this is the same as acquitting a team of failed bank heisters who break in a bank and blow up the safe only to find there is no money. Ineptitude and stupidity does not equal a get out of jail free card.

And Trump did do a lot of damage to the system.

milk

Quote from: Herman on December 01, 2020, 12:06:12 AM
Other than this there is some heavy indulgence in "but Trump did not make it" so you can't say he has overwhelmning authoritarian leanings.

As has been mentioned before this is the same as acquitting a team of failed bank heisters who break in a bank and blow up the safe only to find there is no money. Ineptitude and stupidity does not equal a get out of jail free card.

And Trump did do a lot of damage to the system.
Just a thought but maybe it's the psychic damage to us. Tump is such a strange case because he's not a little anything. He's the embodiment so much though. I feel sad because of what it says about the American people or maybe just people. I could never have imagined that a person like him could be elevated, let alone revered. It hurts that he's so good at being bad at being anything good. I can't name one thing he's really good at. Some people seemed to think he was a really persuasive person (is it Scott Adams?). Huh? That guy wreaks of insincerity and cheapness. We've all been dirtied. There's very little satisfaction at even beating him.

Herman

I'd say he's a A1 snake oil salesman, i.e. marketeer.

Fëanor

#737
Quote from: Todd on November 30, 2020, 05:00:07 AM

Of course small, weak countries benefit from working with the US.  At some point, though - and one would have thought that point had been reached after all the griping of the Trump and before that Bush II years - it would seem reasonable for small, weak countries to start considering alternative structures for international security and finance.  Instead, NATO expanded yet again in 2020 to include another small, weak country clamoring for US protection, and in the wake of both 9/11 and 2007/8, the US dollar is more central to the global economy than before, US Treasuries act as collateral for more financial transactions than before, other countries come hat in hand like beggars to the Fed more frequently, and small, weak countries continue their embarrassing dependence on Uncle Sam and US taxpayers.  No international system lasts forever, as history very clearly demonstrates, but the pathetic response by small, weak countries this century makes one wonder just what it will take for other countries to start pursuing alternatives.  I mean countries that can.  Canada and Mexico are locked in, like it or not.

... A warped view of international relations and the place "small and weak" as well as the presently large & strong.

Sure, small, weak countries benefit from working with the USA;  sure, Canada and Mexico and others are "locked in".  The World benefits from international system in general, and last I checked the USA was still part of the world.

At this point in history is the USA is the largest and strongest player in the international system, but as you say, international systems come and go.  Should small, weak countries be looking elsewhere than to the USA for largest & strongest?  Is this what you mean by "alternatives"?

One thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.

From one POV the USA may be seen as a parasite on the international system in that consumers more that it produces.

Herman

Person you're talking to doesn't really know there's a world outside the US.

Typical American thinking US = World. (See: the World Series.)

And then there's the typical bipolar grievance / pride: "everybody hates us" / "the entire world wants to immigrate to the US".

Most people like the US just fine, binge-watching Hollywood made series and getting just as obese as 'Mericans.

Todd

Quote from: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 03:36:43 AM
... A warped view of international relations and the place "small and weak" as well as the presently large & strong.

Incorrect.


Quote from: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 03:36:43 AMThe World benefits from international system in general

Vague to the point of irrelevance.


Quote from: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 03:36:43 AMShould small, weak countries be looking elsewhere than to the USA for largest & strongest?  Is this what you mean by "alternatives"?

No.  There will be no shift in unipolarity from one hegemon to another. 


Quote from: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 03:36:43 AMOne thing is for damned sure and that is that the USA benefits from the international system.  Consider that Americans' indulgences resulting in a huge US deficit in goods & services which is financed by foreigners buying USD-denominated securities.  Hell yeah, the international system is propping up the USA.  If the small and weak start to look elsewhere that the USA, the US trade deficit problem will solve itself PDQ.

The US does benefit.  The existing framework has outlived its usefulness, and an alternative is needed, and has been for a long time.  Your statement about the US trade deficit does not comport with either statistical evidence or any extant international trade theory.


Quote from: Fëanor on December 01, 2020, 03:36:43 AMFrom one POV the USA may be seen as a parasite on the international system in that consumers more that it produces.

Correct.  Which simply reinforces the idea that non-Americans should begin seeking alternatives.


Quote from: Herman on December 01, 2020, 05:17:35 AM
Person you're talking to doesn't really know there's a world outside the US.

Typical American thinking US = World. (See: the World Series.)

And then there's the typical bipolar grievance / pride: "everybody hates us" / "the entire world wants to immigrate to the US".

Most people like the US just fine, binge-watching Hollywood made series and getting just as obese as 'Mericans.

Incorrect.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya