USA Politics (redux)

[Pohjolas Daughter]

"With Electoral College Vote More Republicans Acknowledge Biden's Victory"

Note the adjective more rather than all.

Yeah, it's a sad state of the union that we are currently in. 

PD

[Todd]

Would you say it's okay to engage in various political and legal tactics to possibly change the outcome of a democratic election? I don't know about you, but I'd say it's not okay and that's why I and many other people call it trying to steal the election.

If the actions are legal, yes.  Indeed, taking legal action in court is entirely appropriate; court is the proper official venue for such actions.  Unsurprisingly, the courts ruled against the Trump administration and his political allies.  People who claim that filing suit in court on electoral matters is tantamount to stealing an election are not just wrong, they are absolutely wrong.  Giving speeches, holding rallies, encouraging allies to engage in lawful actions to pursue aligned political goals are all perfectly acceptable, as well.

[Florestan]

There are three non-American GMGers who have expressed great concern about Trump trying to steal the elections ever since summer.

There is one American GMGer who plainly stated Trump did try to steal the elections.

There is one American GMGer who claims that Trump's not succeeding in stealing the elections is no evidemce that he didn't try it --- and there's another American GMGer who seems to sgree with that.

To claim that no GMGer has ever claimed that Trump would / tried / did steal the elections is counterfactual.

[Todd]

counterfactual.

Spelling?

[Florestan]

If the actions are legal, yes.  Indeed, taking legal action in court is entirely appropriate; court is the proper official venue for such actions.  Unsurprisingly, the courts ruled against the Trump administration and his political allies.  People who claim that filing suit in court on electoral matters is tantamount to stealing an election are not just wrong, they are absolutely wrong. 

I'm greatly surprised that anyone can equate filing a law suit with stealing. Actually, I can't think of anything more legalistic than filing a law suit. "See you in court!" is the essence of justice and the whole point of an independent judiciary, ain't it?

[Florestan]

Spelling?

Anything wrong with it?

[Todd]

"See you in court!" is the essence of justice and the whole point of an independent judiciary, ain't it?

Yes, it is.

Anything wrong with it?

No.

[Karl Henning]

Yeah, it's a sad state of the union that we are currently in. 

PD

Never Forget the Republicans Who Held Fast

[flyingdutchman]

Filing lawsuits are NOT part of stealing the election, as long as the lawsuits have some basis in reality. Filing frivolous lawsuits based on bogus claims of conspiracy could lead to disbarment, and rightfully so. Further, we know that the lawsuits were filed to satiate Trump

[Karl Henning]

Filing lawsuits are NOT part of stealing the election, as long as the lawsuits have some basis in reality. Filing frivolous lawsuits based on bogus claims of conspiracy could lead to disbarment, and rightfully so. Further, we know that the lawsuits were filed to satiate Trump

So, both devoid of any legal merit, and performative bullshittery.

[drogulus]

To claim that no GMGer has ever claimed that Trump would / tried / did steal the elections is counterfactual.

     Trump didn't steal the election. He tried and failed. Like autocrats often do, he tried to get the courts to help him do it. Trump thought the courts belonged to him and having the judges in his pocket would mean that the law would be what judges say, and the theft would be legal in that restricted sense. The courts didn't say what he wanted him to say about what the law is. They would not pervert justice for him.

     It might occur to you that democratic governments are overthrown by courts and legislatures, with or without the support of paramilitary forces, the police or election officials. You can't rely on executives or legislatures at the state level to fold when only itty bitty mobs show up to help them see reason.

     Time ran out on Trump, so he couldn't act slowly like Orban has done. His efforts were spasmodic and rushed, his allies often unreliable and cowardly. The judges ran away en masse. Shame on them! They could have held the line and given the cover of legality to everything Trump wanted. That's how it's done.

     Trump made many mistakes, but one whopper stands out. He outsourced judge selection to conservatives in the party, while imagining that he was buying personal loyalty. That turned out to be wrong. Trump was a terrible Pauly. You're supposed to know you bought the judge, not just assume you did.

[Karl Henning]

     Trump didn't steal the election. He tried and failed.

Yes, that is the fact.

[Karl Henning]

88% of Republican elected officials out of their native blend of cynicism and cowardice, are forbearing to acknowledge reality.

[Karl Henning]

There are three non-American GMGers who have expressed great concern about Trump trying to steal the elections ever since summer.

There is one American GMGer who plainly stated Trump did try to steal the elections.

There is one American GMGer who claims that Trump's not succeeding in stealing the elections is no evidemce that he didn't try it --- and there's another American GMGer who seems to sgree with that.

To claim that no GMGer has ever claimed that Trump would / tried / did steal the elections is counterfactual.

This is all beside the point; unless your point is salving Huggy Bear's ego.

It's not everybody's idea of a good time, but have at it.

[Florestan]

This is all beside the point;

Is it really, Karl? One American GMGer's point was that no GMGer has ever said Trump would / tried to / did steal the elections. I just pointed out he's wrong.

It's not everybody's idea of a good time, but have at it.

Let me put it this way: Trump's lawsuits were laughed off courts one after another, including the SCOTUS, in which if I remember correctly a majority of judges were nominated by none other than himself. I don't know about you, Karl, but for me this is clear and irrefutable evidence that the US judiciary is truly and genuinely independent, and thinking about that I'm really having a good time.

Now, I only wish he pushed his idiocy and madness to the point of refusing to leave the White House past noon on January, 20 2021 and therefore offering the world the live show of being forcefully evicted, clear and irrefutable evidence that the US law enforcement is also truly and genuinely independent. I'm having a good time already thinking about it.

[Karl Henning]

Bill Galston (I think): The Republican Party is now actively cultivating a kind of citizen, and it is not a citizen of a democracy. It is not a given in human history that human beings just automatically do the right thing, even when it's costly, and you have to cultivate people who are willing, you have to reward acts of honorable sacrifice for the good of the political community. And right now Republicans are not doing that, they are doing the opposite: they are deliberately saying and doing idiotic, incredibly irresponsible things in order to get the cheers of (I'll be honest) an ignorant mob and in doing that, they're making the mob more ignorant and more hateful, and this is happening and repeating itself in a kind of death spiral every single day. These are people we have to keep living with, they're our fellow citizens who are going to keep voting, who are gonna protest who are going to be putting pressure on their elected officials going forward, and that's where it's scary. I don't know if, as [N.] said, that the exact scenario will be unfolding again in the future like it has this time without actually Trump on the scene, but other bad things can happen when such a significant chunk of the electorate is buying into this kind of civic poison that is now circulating around the country....

[Karl Henning]

Great neologism I just heard: griftocracy

[Karl Henning]

Bill Barr? He gone.

Barr began the Year of Our Lord 2016 as a well respected member of the conservative legal establishment. He concludes 2020 with his reputation destroyed, destined to be remembered as the most dishonorable attorney general in a century. The fact that he tried to salvage his legacy in the closing weeks of his tenure looks less like a man standing up and more like Meat Loaf.

Everyone Trump Touches Dies: The List

He revealed people for what they really were.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Never Forget the Republicans Who Held Fast

Yes, I am thankful for those who called it as they saw it--like Mitt Romney.  Wish that there had been many more, but am grateful for and proud of and appreciative of those who called it what it was and took a stand. 

PD

[Todd]

Now, I only wish he pushed his idiocy and madness to the point of refusing to leave the White House past noon on January, 20 2021 and therefore offering the world the live show of being forcefully evicted, clear and irrefutable evidence that the US law enforcement is also truly and genuinely independent. I'm having a good time already thinking about it.

Only then could it be said of Trump that he tried to steal the election.  And really, it would just be trespassing.