USA Politics (redux)

[greg]

And you seem to somehow think that a bunch of Youtube bobbleheads are all one needs for information

It's irrelevant if they are "Youtube bobbleheads" or not. You don't have to have qualifications/degrees to have knowledge, although many of them also have that. I only care about the facts.

Though idk if you are talking about politics only, or broadly. Most of my learning about music production (only bought one small course in addition) is from youtube, like 90% of it. And I'm hearing results and feeling like I know what I'm doing a lot more now (even if I'm not an expert yet). So for that, it was pretty much all I needed for information. You can take classes for the same thing I learned, but it's not necessary.

There's no magical quality that classroom learning has that online information doesn't have (every field is a bit different, though). Being very highly self-critical and having the access to information was able to get my guitar skills and composition skills to where I could write and play anything I wanted (never took guitar/music composition lessons, either).

dismiss serious journalism or scholarly research

A lot of things that might be "serious journalism" are not to be taken seriously at all.

scholarly research

? I have no problem with scholarly research...

go so far as saying we should give "equal time" to the current equivalent of flat-earthers..

?

The self-congratulatory tone is, of course, the effect of being locked up in a self-affirming info-bubble.

The self-congratulatory would mean narcissism, but when I finished college I didn't even go to graduation, and I think a narcissist would want to be the spotlight of attention for their achievements.

You would think, actually most people that did well enough (GPA was ~3.7) while having a job on the side, would want to brag about it, after all their struggles. But I never felt that way.

The only thing I felt was relief at it ending, and I'd rather watch a building burn or something as a celebration than have thousands of people clap for me. Also I didn't feel good at the way the job market had changed, which included IT/programming. The employers only cared about your credentials, because they needed a way to quickly filter through the massive amount of job applications. In the past, supposedly getting the job I was going for didn't require any type of degree. It just required some of your free time to learn some skills well, and then you could apply for a job and take whatever qualifying test they offered.

So I was forced into playing a game that I didn't want to play, spending over 4 years (not to mention I previously spent 1 1/2 years in technical school which got me nothing in graduation of 2010) to get a piece of paper that's basically just a key out of poverty, and still you have to get lucky to find the keyhole.

On top of that, while trying to get jobs/internship, I'd see a couple that basically just excluded white males, also Asian males. So living in small town with no good job opportunities, making barely above minimum wage, isn't low enough? I have to change my race or gender also? They could have just left the door open for anyone qualified, but no, screw white and Asian males, I guess.

So yeah, in the end it all ended up good after I found something, but f*** the system, that's all I wanna say.

[greg]

One more thought. Sorry.

But it's politics-related.

If hardcore extremist conservatives were in power, they probably would completely cancel pell grant/all college funding, and tell people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" (I like the spirit of it, but that's pie in the sky fantasy thinking in this world).

If SJW's identitarians were in charge, they would probably provide free college for everyone except certain demographics, such as white males (so I'd get nothing).

So yeah, f*** the extremists of both parties.






EDIT:
If I can summarize, sure, there are people who probably don't care or aspire much financially beyond being able to rent a room their whole life, but that is extremely limiting. Many things, hobbies, women/family, etc. will be unattainable, so that's why I suspect most people aspire to more than that.

So that's why I say getting the degree and getting out is probably going to be most people's priority, rather than taking the extra time to have fun learning stuff.

And many people (like me) had to work (typically five evenings a week) so we didn't get much time to dilly dally with our studies.

And the reason I bring up my experience (which Herman interprets as bragging) is to show that I'm not saying it out of an attitude of "ugh, college is hard so learning is bad, DERP." It's not that hard, it just requires a lot of time, and speedrunning is preferable, especially for people like me who weren't able to go to college directly after school and had to wait a few years... get the shit done and then focus on some of the random elective course they make you do later through self-teaching (have fun with it), when you aren't in such a rush to finish.

[Herman]

Self-congratulatory certainly does not equal 'narcissism' nor is it exactly the same as 'bragging'.

You are very busy justifying your course of action in self-education, which comes across as self-congratulatory. Also because you feel the need to, may I say, put down the intrinsic value of a good college education, just because you didn't get one. The latter mechanism is understandable, but really no one is provoking you on that account.

You have a habit of talking about your intellectual accomplishments and your self-staggering IQ in a way no one else on GMG does. (There is usually one person in every online community who does this, in my experience.) This is what some people respond to.

[71 dB]

All I have been seeing in regards of US politics lately has been Dr. Seuss and Mr Potato Head. I had never heard of Dr. Seuss before. Apparently they are some children's books. I think I have heard of Mr Potato Head once referenced in one episode of The X-Files.

Polls indicate Republicans know more about Dr. Seuss decision than Covid relief... ...yeah, the Dems do suck at political branding... 

[71 dB]

If SJW's identitarians were in charge, they would probably provide free college for everyone except certain demographics, such as white males (so I'd get nothing).

Most of the time SJWs are so deep inside their cultural war bubble they don't even think about such social democratic ideas as tuition free education, but if they were in power and provided free college, that would include everyone including white males (yes, YOU). SJWs are not against white males. They are against white males having privileges other people don't have. Of course right-wingers try to frame it all being anti-white male (because one of the main purposes of these cultural wars for right-wingers is maintaining the privileges of white men!), but only fools fall for that crap.

[71 dB]

Higher education is for self improvement, growing up and understanding. With that, usually a career. If you go for it the other way round you will never grow up. QED in this thread it seems.

Disappointingly higher education never gave me a good paying career, but at least it gave me understanding of some things.

[71 dB]

I would never knock the value of higher education.  I would attribute my own to giving me a basic understand of macroeconomics, (for example), a subject that isn't especially intuitive.  On the other hand my knowledge of history and political science is mostly self-learned.

Macroeconomics really is something people struggle to understand, because it is so far from our personal economics. I have noticed people in general don't understand multiplier effects in macroeconomics. People don't seem to understand how much it matter how and how fast money circulates in the society. People don't understand debt isn't "lack of money" in macroeconomics. It's more money elsewhere. It is about "where" the money is. The multiplier effects dictate largely how much money there is in the macroeconomy, or better how the amount of money changes in time, but since people in general don't know/understand this, it is easy to fearmonger with debt everytime someone tries to improve lives of regular people for example.

Having a higher education on one subject gives skills to educate yourself on other subjects. You know what it takes. You know how it feels. Self-education has it's benefits, especially when you have learned how you learn best. You don't waste your time on listening to tired professors presenting the things in a way that works badly for your brain. I learn new things best when I can formulate it the way my asperger-system-thinker-mind operates. I am really bad at just memorizing things. I need logical connections between things (to me things seem to be defined by the logical connections with other things so for me things don't kind of exist by themselves!). Understanding logical connections is my way of minimazing the need to memorize things. So, for me trying to learn new stuff from a textbook written by a non-system-thinker just listing things to memorize is pretty tiresome!

[71 dB]

And you seem to somehow think that a bunch of Youtube bobbleheads are all one needs for information and dismiss serious journalism or scholarly research and go so far as saying we should give "equal time" to the current equivalent of flat-earthers..

When it comes to US politics, serious journalism is a rarity. Most people who are supposed to do serious journalism are actually paid to manufacture consent on behalf of the establishment by ignoring or smearing facts and opinions of people who do scientific research. In this poor state of "MSM journalism", "Youtube bobbleheads" are actually often a superior source of information and opinions. If not serious journalism, at least it might fulfil the minimum requirements for actual journalism.

[greg]

I once had a class where the teacher asked who was doing school part time for 8 years, and half the class raised their hands.

Seeing that half of my 4 years was spent being forced to do classes which had little or nothing to do with my major, it could have been done in 2 years if only the important classes were required.

But for these people, they are technically spending 4 years of their life taking classes that have little or nothing to do with their major. Reasons may be financial/family/etc.

Maybe some of them are okay with it, but I'd imagine many of them are not. 4 years is a lot of time to spend on someone else's idea of having to mix education with training. And they are paying for it somehow. Probably not ideal to have such high hurdles in between them and middle class salaries.

Self-congratulatory certainly does not equal 'narcissism' nor is it exactly the same as 'bragging'.

You are very busy justifying your course of action in self-education, which comes across as self-congratulatory. Also because you feel the need to, may I say, put down the intrinsic value of a good college education, just because you didn't get one. The latter mechanism is understandable, but really no one is provoking you on that account.

You have a habit of talking about your intellectual accomplishments and your self-staggering IQ in a way no one else on GMG does. (There is usually one person in every online community who does this, in my experience.) This is what some people respond to.

The classic Herman spin on things, and the predictable ignoring my point for bringing things up. Which I already explained, multiple times.

But the reasons aren't important to you, only your stuck viewpoint. If it makes you happy, just keep the same viewpoint and ignore everything, I guess.

because you feel the need to, may I say, put down the intrinsic value of a good college education, just because you didn't get one.

Wtf lol.
That's a wild and bizarre assumption to make. Honestly I'm not just typing "lol" at that one, I'm actually laughing. Literally everything about that statement is wrong. Very bizarre.

but if they were in power and provided free college, that would include everyone including white males (yes, YOU). SJWs are not against white males.

Well, I have my doubts in that type of timeline because of the many things I've seen, including the internship posting that I just mentioned that (illegally) excluded white and Asian males, since they are overrepresented.

Maybe you're not wrong. BUT I have serious doubts that they wouldn't, stuff like that seems like it would be a foreshadowing if SJWs came into power.

When it comes to US politics, serious journalism is a rarity. Most people who are supposed to do serious journalism are actually paid to manufacture consent on behalf of the establishment by ignoring or smearing facts and opinions of people who do scientific research. In this poor state of "MSM journalism", "Youtube bobbleheads" are actually often a superior source of information and opinions. If not serious journalism, at least it might fulfil the minimum requirements for actual journalism.

Right. It's pathetic. Ragebait sells and keeps them in business. But it might be an industry-wide problem. Serious journalism doesn't get click revenue quite in the same way as shocking headlines do. I'm not sure what the solution to that problem would be...

[DavidW]

There's no magical quality that classroom learning has that online information doesn't have

As a teacher I'm going to disagree with this.  You might not have this experience but in class I have students discuss in peer groups and with me as well.  I ask questions to immediately make them think about the ideas they just learned.  I have them solve problems themselves after I show worked examples so that they can have immediate feedback on what they are doing right or wrong. 

Outside of class I hold office hours, we have a tutoring center available in the evenings, and the students can also ask each other for help.

It is very difficult to learn Physics at all without interaction with other people.  But I would say that any academic subject benefits from it. Passively learning by watching videos doesn't amount to much.  And you can learn how to actively engage with textbooks, but it is an acquired skill usually picked up in classes first.

[Karl Henning]

As a teacher I'm going to disagree with this.

As a former student who has experienced the magic (greg's word) I disagree, as well.

It is very difficult to learn Physics at all without interaction with other people.

And impossible to learn Music

[greg]

As a teacher I'm going to disagree with this.  You might not have this experience but in class I have students discuss in peer groups and with me as well.  I ask questions to immediately make them think about the ideas they just learned.  I have them solve problems themselves after I show worked examples so that they can have immediate feedback on what they are doing right or wrong. 

Outside of class I hold office hours, we have a tutoring center available in the evenings, and the students can also ask each other for help.

It is very difficult to learn Physics at all without interaction with other people.  But I would say that any academic subject benefits from it. Passively learning by watching videos doesn't amount to much.  And you can learn how to actively engage with textbooks, but it is an acquired skill usually picked up in classes first.

Everyone's experience is different, for sure.

*In my tech school, before university, my friend complained that the teacher didn't teach nearly enough to make the class understandable and enjoyable enough. I didn't quite get it, the information is all in the book, so why need a teacher?

So when I finished I just gave him all the answers and it helped him graduate. 
*

Hey Herman, you can take that part out of context while ignoring my point and use that to judge me negatively again, which will invalidate my perspective and points.

Oh wait, I can do that for you and save you all the work!

Okay, so he's, umm.... let's see... "self-congratulating" about finishing tech school while not needing much help from the teacher. There! Done!

And impossible to learn Music

Ummmm...? lol

[Herman]

Hey Herman, you can take that part out of context while ignoring my point

Well, I find you have managed to make it all about yourself again, and how great you are (title of the topic: USA politics > Greg about Greg) so I'm not interested, sorry.

[Daverz]

As a former student who has experienced the magic (greg's word) I disagree, as well.

And impossible to learn Music

And it's just flat out wrong.  I'm not aware of any research that shows that online learning has equal outcomes to in-person learning, and quite a lot of research to the contrary. 

[Karl Henning]

Well, I find you have managed to make it all about yourself again, and how great you are (title of the topic: USA politics > Greg about Greg) so I'm not interested, sorry.

Herr "ich bin sehr klug!"

[SimonNZ]

Seeing that half of my 4 years was spent being forced to do classes which had little or nothing to do with my major, it could have been done in 2 years if only the important classes were required.

So you're the kid in school who was always saying "why do I have to learn x if I'm never going to get a job doing x".

[71 dB]

Well, I have my doubts in that type of timeline because of the many things I've seen, including the internship posting that I just mentioned that (illegally) excluded white and Asian males, since they are overrepresented.

Maybe you're not wrong. BUT I have serious doubts that they wouldn't, stuff like that seems like it would be a foreshadowing if SJWs came into power.

Well, white and Asian males are overrepresented because of the current system. Tuition free education would alleviate/fix that problem and SJWs wouldn't have to make those posts anymore.

[SimonNZ]

When it comes to US politics, serious journalism is a rarity. Most people who are supposed to do serious journalism are actually paid to manufacture consent on behalf of the establishment by ignoring or smearing facts and opinions of people who do scientific research. In this poor state of "MSM journalism", "Youtube bobbleheads" are actually often a superior source of information and opinions. If not serious journalism, at least it might fulfil the minimum requirements for actual journalism.

We've been through this a few times now, and you know that I know that you've got no idea how much serious journalism there is out there because you don't read any of it, you take the easy road of believing your YT personalities that its all worthless and you should just stick with them and they'll tell you which lazy buzzwords you can use to justify not taking the time to read.

[SimonNZ]

Do you really think I follow some morons on Youtube who pull their opinions out of their hat or ass? Where do you think they get their information from? These Youtubers search for articles by serious journalists for work. Yes, this is certainly easier.

Yes they get it from the very sources they then have you sweepingly dismiss. They're getting it from people who do the actual legwork and interviews rather than bloviating on other peoples work.

Lead you to the sources, do they? Which journalists do you read regularly now they've led you to them?

[SimonNZ]

IAlso, it doesn't matter what I follow.

Well that's not true if you're here to say how very informed you are and how very uninformed everyone else is.

But whatever. I'm bored with this already and I don't respect your manifestly unread and simplistic worldview.