Author Topic: USA Politics (redux)  (Read 96032 times)

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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2700 on: June 10, 2021, 02:14:21 PM »
So this tends to define it as a woman's rights versus a fetus' rights issue.  I was arguing that -- at least up to some point -- a fetus has no rights.

I agree. And yes. If the RCC had its way, it would be illegal to use Plan B contraception and a woman would lose personal autonomy even before pregnancy. Ev'ry sperm is sacred, ev'ry sperm is good! Most evangelicals believe fertilized eggs have immortal souls and so have full human rights before pregnancy.

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2701 on: June 10, 2021, 03:09:12 PM »
...
Although my inclination is "Left-liberal" apparently, you'll notice I'm closest to Conservative in the 'Authority' and 'Purity' categories, (whatever purity precisely means).  Isn't authority somewhat the flip of liberty?  In any case I think various countries would be better off if citizens were more "socially compliant" even if the compliance demands so enforcement by Big Brother.

Why? That same Big Brother could create hell on earth the second the leader (who may even be a good dude) dies and some asshole psychopath takes charge. Or the current dude who may have seemed good was bad all along. If you don't keep power in check, you will be doomed to live a meaningless life like a cow on a farm ready to be eaten by those in power. A promise of providing safety can be nothing but an excuse to control, manipulate and commit evil acts on large amounts of the population. You need a little of it to maximize freedom, but it should always be kept in mind that freedom is the end goal, not safety. Maslow hierarchy of needs- aim for the top, not the bottom.

Well the USofA just had an asshole psychopath in charge for 4 years and survived it.  But then as they say, 'In a democracy people get the government they deserve'.

Everything in degree.  In any case I'm talking about a democracy, not a dictatorship.  So is it so bad if in a COVID-19 situation, say, people are fined for large indoor gatherings?  Or for not wearing a facemask in public places?  Or kids are not permitted to attend school without vaccination were it is available?  This the sort of Big Brotherly control I'm talking about.

A church here in Ontario was fined and eventually padlocked because the pastor and congregation would not obey the rule against large public gatherings:  was this a violation of religious freedom or "liberty" in general.

I don't think so.  In any case the "liberty" to do whatever the eff you want regardless of the rights and protection of others is invalid.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 03:11:13 PM by Fëanor »

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2702 on: June 10, 2021, 03:18:22 PM »
but it should always be kept in mind that freedom is the end goal, not safety.

Bullshit. And if I challenge you to expand on this nonsense statement of absolute certainty you're going to say you're not really interested in politics, right?

And "Maslow hierarchy of needs"? Self-actualization =/= "freedom", and certainly not in the sense you're using the term. And its saying "safety"is one of the bedrock requirements for self-actualization, not something optional.

For the hundreth time: try putting down the amateur youtubers and pick up a thick academic book.


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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2703 on: June 10, 2021, 04:50:18 PM »
Karl, l suspect that with that post you may have offended ass-wipes of every... stripe.



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Offline greg

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2704 on: June 11, 2021, 09:14:15 AM »
Bullshit. And if I challenge you to expand on this nonsense statement of absolute certainty you're going to say you're not really interested in politics, right?
I'm not interested in most of the popular things related to politics that are most often discussed- health care, stupid gaffes, etc. not interested.

Just conceptual stuff is far more interesting.


And "Maslow hierarchy of needs"? Self-actualization =/= "freedom", and certainly not in the sense you're using the term. And its saying "safety"is one of the bedrock requirements for self-actualization, not something optional.
Freedom is an *absolute* requirement for self-actualization. Self-actualization is the ability to move forward to wherever the compass of your soul points you. In a totalitarian state, every direction will be blocked. Unless you are one of the rare people that find self-actualization in merely surviving, then yeah, *there's always exceptions to the rule, so it's not 100% absolute*.

And yeah, i think in my post i hinted at that, you use safety only as a stepping stone toward freedom, not the end goal. If people figured "oh, Earth is safer here so we'll never explore space, it's too dangerous and scary" then we'd never have gone to space.

Which is why, (maybe i already said this, too?) you need a police force (ironically) to maximize freedom, because you'll never have 100% freedom, but you need some protection from the random bad people out there who would just get away with killing everyone if they could if there were no enforcement. But too much police, and too many rules/laws, and you lose freedom.

Imagine if the US didn't have all of these petty crimes being enforced so strictly. Several of these BLM cases wouldn't even have happened. It also tends to affect minorities more. Remove the petty laws and there will be less police brutality against minorities, period, because there will be less law enforcement contact. One example from my own experience is a case from when I was in high school, a friend of a friend (who was black btw) was in a car with some weed and the police was about to pull him over, but he panicked and ran into a tree and died. If we didn't have these absolutely retarded drug laws, he'd still be alive today.

So in my view, libertarian ideology would probably be the most beneficial to preventing stuff like this. (Probably, idk for sure, since there could always be a variable I'm overlooking, but it'd be something that more people should look into)

For the hundreth time: try putting down the amateur youtubers and pick up a thick academic book.
I'm not getting those thoughts from youtubers. They are useful for providing information and perspectives, but not for forming my own perspective.





Why? That same Big Brother could create hell on earth the second the leader (who may even be a good dude) dies and some asshole psychopath takes charge. Or the current dude who may have seemed good was bad all along. If you don't keep power in check, you will be doomed to live a meaningless life like a cow on a farm ready to be eaten by those in power. A promise of providing safety can be nothing but an excuse to control, manipulate and commit evil acts on large amounts of the population. You need a little of it to maximize freedom, but it should always be kept in mind that freedom is the end goal, not safety. Maslow hierarchy of needs- aim for the top, not the bottom.


Well the USofA just had an asshole psychopath in charge for 4 years and survived it.  But then as they say, 'In a democracy people get the government they deserve'.

Everything in degree.  In any case I'm talking about a democracy, not a dictatorship.  So is it so bad if in a COVID-19 situation, say, people are fined for large indoor gatherings?  Or for not wearing a facemask in public places?  Or kids are not permitted to attend school without vaccination were it is available?  This the sort of Big Brotherly control I'm talking about.

A church here in Ontario was fined and eventually padlocked because the pastor and congregation would not obey the rule against large public gatherings:  was this a violation of religious freedom or "liberty" in general.

I don't think so.  In any case the "liberty" to do whatever the eff you want regardless of the rights and protection of others is invalid.
Yeah, that's another case of "where do you draw the line?" Which is difficult to answer.
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2705 on: June 11, 2021, 04:27:34 PM »
new long article from Reuters on the ongoing death threats to elecrion officiald from Trumpists:

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT
Trump-inspired death threats are terrorizing election workers

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2706 on: June 11, 2021, 05:19:16 PM »
new long article from Reuters on the ongoing death threats to elecrion officiald from Trumpists:

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT
Trump-inspired death threats are terrorizing election workers


“Aw, c'mon! Both parties do this!”
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2707 on: June 11, 2021, 06:03:06 PM »
I know you're joking, but doubtless there are some/many loons out there who actually believe that.

What to them are the "both sides" of a prolonged campaign of death threats to election officials condoned and encouraged by a sore loser who refuses to concede, partly for his hurt ego and partly because he needs the immunity from criminal prosecution that comes with the office?

...or is it just another iteration of "something, something, BLM!"  and "something, something, Antifa!"?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:05:57 PM by SimonNZ »

Offline Herman

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2708 on: June 12, 2021, 01:50:32 AM »
And then there's the chance of living in a near-totalitarian state that uses 'Freedom' and 'self-actualisation' as its slogan to keep people in their fetters.

Offline greg

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2709 on: June 12, 2021, 04:52:19 PM »
And then there's the chance of living in a near-totalitarian state that uses 'Freedom' and 'self-actualisation' as its slogan to keep people in their fetters.
It seems to me the right-wing libertarians will more often genuinely believe that, while the authoritarian right (more traditional) conservatives often can be dishonest like that. "Freedom for me, but not for you" type of mentality.
And if you are referring to the US as "near-totalitarian," then it seems like we should stop making unnecessary laws and legalize more stuff.
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Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2710 on: June 13, 2021, 07:06:25 AM »
It seems to me the right-wing libertarians will more often genuinely believe that, while the authoritarian right (more traditional) conservatives often can be dishonest like that. "Freedom for me, but not for you" type of mentality.
And if you are referring to the US as "near-totalitarian," then it seems like we should stop making unnecessary laws and legalize more stuff.

If Herman thinks the USA is "near-totalitarian", (and that's not what I construe), then I don't agree.

Historically and 'till the present the Americans have been obsessed with "liberty" and "rugged individualism" in the sense of I can do whatever I want with little regard for societal good ...

At least that's been the case up to 'till now.  History has shown that a substantial portion of the populace feels deep frustration, they are willing to abandon freedom and democracy for "order" and the promises of demagogues.  I happened in pre-War Germany, it almost happened in Washington on January 6th.  It is still happening in that Republic congress folk still overwhelming are supporting Trump and deny or ignore the 'Big Lie'.

More fundamentally, what is the cause of the frustration of so many Americans?  OK, they are mostly White, older, and small-town, but can they all be dismissed as just racists?  Or is there something also at work?  My hypothesis is that much of the frustration is based on the stagnation of incomes and the conviction their children will not better off than they have been.  (Not to say the racism is real enough.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 07:08:05 AM by Fëanor »

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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2712 on: June 13, 2021, 08:48:33 AM »
More fundamentally, what is the cause of the frustration of so many Americans?  OK, they are mostly White, older, and small-town, but can they all be dismissed as just racists?  Or is there something also at work?  My hypothesis is that much of the frustration is based on the stagnation of incomes and the conviction their children will not better off than they have been.  (Not to say the racism is real enough.)

Well yes - what happened to optimism, progress, the future?

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2713 on: June 13, 2021, 08:59:31 AM »
Well yes - what happened to optimism, progress, the future?
Perhaps it’s simply the effect of the law of diminishing marginal returns?
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Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2714 on: June 13, 2021, 10:11:51 AM »
Well yes - what happened to optimism, progress, the future?

     The left spends much of its energy defending its bastions in Blue states and Blue fortresses in Red states. They should do that, but they also need to extend their reach into the Red wastelands by offering tangible benefits in the form of infrastructure, including broadband connections that allow Red Zoners to integrate with the national economy to their benefit. The wave of the future will encompass a wider geography for higher paying jobs, if that's the future we choose to build. 

     There's more to gain from economic carrots than the sticks of moral suasion IMV. We should recognize that economic decline, even if only measured in relative terms, is an important cause of the politics of despair. People will be less enthralled by demagogues if they see they have a brighter future.
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Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2715 on: June 13, 2021, 11:07:47 AM »
     The left spends much of its energy defending its bastions in Blue states and Blue fortresses in Red states. They should do that, but they also need to extend their reach into the Red wastelands by offering tangible benefits in the form of infrastructure, including broadband connections that allow Red Zoners to integrate with the national economy to their benefit. The wave of the future will encompass a wider geography for higher paying jobs, if that's the future we choose to build. 

     There's more to gain from economic carrots than the sticks of moral suasion IMV. We should recognize that economic decline, even if only measured in relative terms, is an important cause of the politics of despair. People will be less enthralled by demagogues if they see they have a brighter future.

Well golly.  I can't speak to the tactics of the "Left", (actually I think you mean the Democrats), but it seems clear that Republican gerrymandering and control of the electoral process are retarding progress in Red states.  This is what is stifling progressivism in the USA.

35+ years of trickle-down economics has ensured low wages for workers and stagnation for middle class.  The USA never needed supply-side economics, the Rich always had plenty of money.  Regressive taxation policies ensured the the Rich had even more money, but also ensured that the less privileged couldn't create the Demand that would motivate productive investment.  Instead you've only had stock markets and real estate bubbles.

If the yokels in the Red states want infrastructure then they tell their Republic representatives to loosen up, stop promoting Trump lies, and vote for Biden's infrastructure requests to the full extent.

Offline drogulus

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2716 on: June 13, 2021, 01:14:08 PM »
Well golly.  I can't speak to the tactics of the "Left", (actually I think you mean the Democrats), but it seems clear that Republican gerrymandering and control of the electoral process are retarding progress in Red states.  This is what is stifling progressivism in the USA.



     Dems have to do what it takes to get as much built as they can before the window closes. If they do that they can pick up support for the other fights.
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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2717 on: June 13, 2021, 02:50:28 PM »
     The left spends much of its energy defending its bastions in Blue states and Blue fortresses in Red states. They should do that, but they also need to extend their reach into the Red wastelands by offering tangible benefits in the form of infrastructure, including broadband connections that allow Red Zoners to integrate with the national economy to their benefit. The wave of the future will encompass a wider geography for higher paying jobs, if that's the future we choose to build. 

     There's more to gain from economic carrots than the sticks of moral suasion IMV. We should recognize that economic decline, even if only measured in relative terms, is an important cause of the politics of despair. People will be less enthralled by demagogues if they see they have a brighter future.

Would have made a difference in 1930's Deutschland.
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Offline Daverz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2718 on: June 13, 2021, 05:55:58 PM »
Would have made a difference in 1930's Deutschland.

Wow, topsy turvy day, Droggy is the optimist and Henning the cynic. 

IMO, things aren't looking good for American democracy, let alone the Democratic agenda.

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2719 on: June 14, 2021, 02:48:38 AM »
...
     There's more to gain from economic carrots than the sticks of moral suasion IMV. We should recognize that economic decline, even if only measured in relative terms, is an important cause of the politics of despair. People will be less enthralled by demagogues if they see they have a brighter future.

Would have made a difference in 1930's Deutschland.

But "Deutschland" had nothing in the way of carrots to offer.  Germany was broke and still technically owing reparation for WWI.  Germany was funding reparations ultimately from US loans but when the Depression hit, the USA ending the loans.  Both Communists and Nazis made big gains;  neither really had anything to offer except demagoguery.  But the Nazis got the backing of other conservative parities;  Hitler was made Chancellor and got President Hindenburg to use Presidential emergency powers to get rid of the Communists from the Reichstag and stifle the press.  Germany went from democracy to totalitarianism in a few months.

The USA has no comparable Presidential emergency power to those of Weimar -- thanks goodness for that:  imagine Trump with those emergency powers?   >:D

The USA is not broke;  it is awash with Rich money without useful occupation.  The Rich must put aside their selfish greed, OR be forced to do so by the popular will.  The irony is, I've no doubt, if the working and middle classes were better off, plenty would trickle up to the Rich.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 03:48:47 AM by Fëanor »