Author Topic: USA Politics (redux)  (Read 122569 times)

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Offline krummholz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2900 on: September 05, 2021, 08:25:53 AM »
1. Those "promises" never were much more than empty words.

I have no doubt that many of the Afghans left behind feel exactly that way now. And anyone in a foreign country that the US might try to recruit to aid us in any way. I know you don't live in the US, Poju, but don't you see that as a serious problem for a world power trying to defend itself against adversaries that wish to cause mayhem and terror at home?

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2. The damage was done 2 decades ago by the Bush administration when the US went to Afganistan. Biden had the guts to cut the losses of a war without clear realistic goals. The left praises him for that. Obama didn't have the guts. Trump didn't have the guts. Biden has the guts and I give him credit for that. It's crazy to think the US really cares about the rights of women in Afganistan while the US itself is turning slowly into "the handmaiden's tale" (e.g. the new abortion laws in Texas).

Plenty of damage was done by earlier administrations, but it was Trump who first made serious noise about not honouring agreements like the Paris climate accords, NATO commitments, etc. And his "courtship" of the dictator Kim Jong-un made the US into a laughingstock the world over. Not to mention his deference to Putin in Helsinki. That's the "damage" I was referring to, plus Trump's signing of an idiotically one-sided agreement with the Taliban, largely against the wishes of the other coalition nations. The US upholding its commitments is an important part of the glue holding alliances together that have kept widespread armed conflict from breaking out in Europe since WW2. Further damage to our reputation as a reliable ally is IMO something we can ill afford.

I didn't say anything about US "caring" about the rights of women in Afghanistan... as awful and tragic as that situation is, I don't think either party today has the stomach to commit US troops to interfere in a purely internal matter... nor, IMHO, should they.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 08:28:31 AM by krummholz »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2901 on: September 05, 2021, 10:32:23 AM »
I have no doubt that many of the Afghans left behind feel exactly that way now. And anyone in a foreign country that the US might try to recruit to aid us in any way. I know you don't live in the US, Poju, but don't you see that as a serious problem for a world power trying to defend itself against adversaries that wish to cause mayhem and terror at home?

Sure it is a problem. This is the planet of problems. Then again, attacking Kentucky is not high on the "to do" list of Talibans, is it? Their main interest is to be in power in their own region and now they are.

Plenty of damage was done by earlier administrations, but it was Trump who first made serious noise about not honouring agreements like the Paris climate accords, NATO commitments, etc. And his "courtship" of the dictator Kim Jong-un made the US into a laughingstock the world over. Not to mention his deference to Putin in Helsinki. That's the "damage" I was referring to, plus Trump's signing of an idiotically one-sided agreement with the Taliban, largely against the wishes of the other coalition nations. The US upholding its commitments is an important part of the glue holding alliances together that have kept widespread armed conflict from breaking out in Europe since WW2. Further damage to our reputation as a reliable ally is IMO something we can ill afford.

Yes, Trump did tons of damage to the reputation of the US. Biden has I believe "corrected" some of those (e.g. Paris climate accord).

I didn't say anything about US "caring" about the rights of women in Afghanistan... as awful and tragic as that situation is, I don't think either party today has the stomach to commit US troops to interfere in a purely internal matter... nor, IMHO, should they.

You didn't, but the msm keeps saying that as an excuse for forever wars.
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Offline krummholz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2902 on: September 05, 2021, 10:51:45 AM »
Sure it is a problem. This is the planet of problems. Then again, attacking Kentucky is not high on the "to do" list of Talibans, is it? Their main interest is to be in power in their own region and now they are.

Not that I know of... but they may not be able to keep groups like Al Qaeda (with whom they are intimately connected) and Daesh from using the Afghanistan countryside as a base of operations... and THOSE groups most definitely would attack Kentucky or Texas if given the opportunity.

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Yes, Trump did tons of damage to the reputation of the US. Biden has I believe "corrected" some of those (e.g. Paris climate accord).

He did, but that does not (IMO) make up for the damage he did to that reputation by letting down thousands of people who helped us and our coalition partners.

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You didn't, but the msm keeps saying that as an excuse for forever wars.

Most of the msm in this country were very much against the war in Afghanistan, much less the idea of "forever wars". And the popular support in the US for leaving Afghanistan has been overwhelming... it is the WAY that Biden did it that has drawn most of the fire.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2903 on: September 06, 2021, 03:43:07 AM »
Not that I know of... but they may not be able to keep groups like Al Qaeda (with whom they are intimately connected) and Daesh from using the Afghanistan countryside as a base of operations... and THOSE groups most definitely would attack Kentucky or Texas if given the opportunity.

To my knowledge almost all terrorist attacks in the US are domestic far-right wing attacks. Main stream media may not be open about this, but that's what the statistics say I believe. What happened in January 6th? Did Al Qaeda attack Orlando? No, far-right wingers attacked democracy. Rumour has it September 18th there will be another "Trump riot" organized by far-right extremist groups like the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. Lets hope nothing comes out of this. The sad truth is that at this point some people in the US have been so badly radicalized, that the US actually has its own Al Qaeda and what happens in some States reminds Taliban rule to certain extent, just based on different religion.

He did, but that does not (IMO) make up for the damage he did to that reputation by letting down thousands of people who helped us and our coalition partners.

I think in the future this will be seen in its context and the actions of Biden will be seen in a more positive light. Yes,  thousands of people were let down, but then again, the US is letting down millions of its own citizens every day: No healthcare. No living wage. No clean water etc. That's what Biden should be criticized for and I do.

Most of the msm in this country were very much against the war in Afghanistan, much less the idea of "forever wars". And the popular support in the US for leaving Afghanistan has been overwhelming... it is the WAY that Biden did it that has drawn most of the fire.

20 years ago I did not follow US politics at all and knew absolutely nothing about it. In my idiotic ignorance I thought the US always does good with its military operations over the World and most muslims are just bad evil people. I have come a long way from that and now I know the US is actually the number one terrorist country in the World. My sources tell the msm did lie to Americans about he necessity to attack Afghanistan, but maybe my sources are the liers and you are right. I don't have a way to know. The World has become a place where a lot of people lie on purpose and still can sleep at night somehow. Who can you trust anymore? All I can say is that I don't purposedly lie. My personality type (INTJ/P) makes me a truth-based honest person. If I say something false it is because I am wrong/stupid/ignorant, not because I purposedly lie.
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Offline krummholz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2904 on: September 06, 2021, 04:22:12 AM »
To my knowledge almost all terrorist attacks in the US are domestic far-right wing attacks. Main stream media may not be open about this, but that's what the statistics say I believe. What happened in January 6th? Did Al Qaeda attack Orlando? No, far-right wingers attacked democracy. Rumour has it September 18th there will be another "Trump riot" organized by far-right extremist groups like the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. Lets hope nothing comes out of this. The sad truth is that at this point some people in the US have been so badly radicalized, that the US actually has its own Al Qaeda and what happens in some States reminds Taliban rule to certain extent, just based on different religion.

It's quite true that the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been of the domestic variety - but that does not diminish the threat from jihadism. And indeed, as you point out, some disaffected Americans have been radicalized themselves, mainly by Daesh I believe, and have joined terrorist cells operating in Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere. But the same is true of European countries; there have been British nationals recruited into Daesh, for instance. The rest of your argument about Taliban-like rule in the US is so far over the top it barely merits a reply. Yes, we do have a large contingent of would-be theocrats that would like nothing more than to impose the Judeo-Christian version of Sharia law on the US. But we also have a constitutional democracy that has withstood stresses that have toppled less stable governments. The US survived January 6, after all. Eternal vigilance is necessary, yes. But on both fronts - to neglect the threat posed by international terrorism is to leave oneself open to another attack such as what happened 20 years ago next Saturday.

Quote
I think in the future this will be seen in its context and the actions of Biden will be seen in a more positive light. Yes,  thousands of people were let down, but then again, the US is letting down millions of its own citizens every day: No healthcare. No living wage. No clean water etc. That's what Biden should be criticized for and I do.

It is too soon to say how history will judge Biden's handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal. It all depends on how the situation unfolds there. But the domestic situation re: poverty and healthcare is not relevant to my point about the reputation of the US as an ally. I'm not talking about moral imperatives here but geopolitical ones.

Quote
20 years ago I did not follow US politics at all and knew absolutely nothing about it. In my idiotic ignorance I thought the US always does good with its military operations over the World and most muslims are just bad evil people. I have come a long way from that and now I know the US is actually the number one terrorist country in the World. My sources tell the msm did lie to Americans about he necessity to attack Afghanistan, but maybe my sources are the liers and you are right. I don't have a way to know. The World has become a place where a lot of people lie on purpose and still can sleep at night somehow. Who can you trust anymore? All I can say is that I don't purposedly lie. My personality type (INTJ/P) makes me a truth-based honest person. If I say something false it is because I am wrong/stupid/ignorant, not because I purposedly lie.

I rely largely on the public radio and tv outlets NPR and PBS, and to a lesser extent the BBC, for most of my news. To my knowledge the msm in the US very rarely outright lies - but they do sometimes report things that later turn out to be false. In most cases they issue a correction - at least NPR and PBS do. The msm were almost certainly lied to by the Bush 43 administration about the purported existence of WMD in Iraq that led to our invading that country; I doubt seriously that they knew it was a lie. Trump-friendly media, well consider whom they are in bed with. Of course they lie. But they are not the msm. I do not think you are lying, Poju, but I wonder what sources you are listening to. The US is the #1 terrorist country in the world? This sounds like propaganda out of the Kremlin or the CCP. Our hands are not squeaky clean and we have made many mistakes. But to call the US a terrorist country is, I think, to stretch the definition of "terrorist" beyond all recognition.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 04:51:15 AM by krummholz »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2905 on: September 06, 2021, 09:28:14 AM »
It's quite true that the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been of the domestic variety - but that does not diminish the threat from jihadism. And indeed, as you point out, some disaffected Americans have been radicalized themselves, mainly by Daesh I believe, and have joined terrorist cells operating in Syria, Iraq, and elsewhere. But the same is true of European countries; there have been British nationals recruited into Daesh, for instance. The rest of your argument about Taliban-like rule in the US is so far over the top it barely merits a reply. Yes, we do have a large contingent of would-be theocrats that would like nothing more than to impose the Judeo-Christian version of Sharia law on the US. But we also have a constitutional democracy that has withstood stresses that have toppled less stable governments. The US survived January 6, after all. Eternal vigilance is necessary, yes. But on both fronts - to neglect the threat posed by international terrorism is to leave oneself open to another attack such as what happened 20 years ago next Saturday.

It is too soon to say how history will judge Biden's handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal. It all depends on how the situation unfolds there. But the domestic situation re: poverty and healthcare is not relevant to my point about the reputation of the US as an ally. I'm not talking about moral imperatives here but geopolitical ones.

I rely largely on the public radio and tv outlets NPR and PBS, and to a lesser extent the BBC, for most of my news. To my knowledge the msm in the US very rarely outright lies - but they do sometimes report things that later turn out to be false. In most cases they issue a correction - at least NPR and PBS do. The msm were almost certainly lied to by the Bush 43 administration about the purported existence of WMD in Iraq that led to our invading that country; I doubt seriously that they knew it was a lie. Trump-friendly media, well consider whom they are in bed with. Of course they lie. But they are not the msm. I do not think you are lying, Poju, but I wonder what sources you are listening to. The US is the #1 terrorist country in the world? This sounds like propaganda out of the Kremlin or the CCP. Our hands are not squeaky clean and we have made many mistakes. But to call the US a terrorist country is, I think, to stretch the definition of "terrorist" beyond all recognition.

This is getting long and I maybe should try to regulate and limit my activity on this thread given the past problems. So, some short remarks:

Nobody suggests the US should neglect international terrorism, of course not, but it can be done without occupying a country for decades. Change of information is an effective way to stop terrorism: People can be arrested and stopped before they commit terrorist attacks. Also, the root causes of terrorism can be addressed.

You probably follow yourself some of the more reliable sources, but many Americans don't do that. For them it is Fox News/Tucker Carlson, not NPR. The lies are clever: Calling things 50/50 when they are 99/1. Making people doubt facts. Omitting information. You can do a lot of dishonest reporting without actually telling lies.

I'm not listening to Kremlin propaganda.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 09:38:21 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline krummholz

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2906 on: September 06, 2021, 11:00:51 AM »
This is getting long and I maybe should try to regulate and limit my activity on this thread given the past problems. So, some short remarks:

Nobody suggests the US should neglect international terrorism, of course not, but it can be done without occupying a country for decades. Change of information is an effective way to stop terrorism: People can be arrested and stopped before they commit terrorist attacks. Also, the root causes of terrorism can be addressed.

You probably follow yourself some of the more reliable sources, but many Americans don't do that. For them it is Fox News/Tucker Carlson, not NPR. The lies are clever: Calling things 50/50 when they are 99/1. Making people doubt facts. Omitting information. You can do a lot of dishonest reporting without actually telling lies.

I'm not listening to Kremlin propaganda.

No worries with me, Poju. We obviously disagree, but it can be done respectfully. I'm not sure what difficulties you've encountered in the past, but I dislike ad hominems and I hope I have not said anything that you would take offense to.

Everything you have mentioned is an important element in fighting international terrorism, but they are apparently not enough. And I'm not sure how the US Govt. can address the root causes of terrorism. NGOs can, perhaps, to some extent, but what they have been able to do is clearly not enough. Terrorist organizations such as Daesh are committed to a world view 180 degrees opposed to that on which western democratic republics are based.

And yes, ok - I suppose Fox qualifies as part of the msm, and the only msm source that I wouldn't trust. I very rarely pay attention to what they say, they have long been in bed with Trump and are famous for spewing right-wing disinformation. The rest of the msm has, if anything, a left-wing bias. Even NPR is not politically neutral, but what they report as fact is usually reliable.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2907 on: September 06, 2021, 12:46:14 PM »
No worries with me, Poju. We obviously disagree, but it can be done respectfully. I'm not sure what difficulties you've encountered in the past, but I dislike ad hominems and I hope I have not said anything that you would take offense to.

There is no problem with what you have said.  0:) The problem I have had is my behavior here has been seen as "trolling" (what it wasn't, but I can understand how my persistence on bringing up certain things might have given that impression). Last year I got a 2 months ban on this thread and this year for a few months all my post on this forum were approved before publication. Luckily that was lifted a while ago, but I need to be careful about what I say. That's why I am nervous about continuing this.

Everything you have mentioned is an important element in fighting international terrorism, but they are apparently not enough. And I'm not sure how the US Govt. can address the root causes of terrorism. NGOs can, perhaps, to some extent, but what they have been able to do is clearly not enough. Terrorist organizations such as Daesh are committed to a world view 180 degrees opposed to that on which western democratic republics are based.

There is a lot to write about this, but I choose not to.

And yes, ok - I suppose Fox qualifies as part of the msm, and the only msm source that I wouldn't trust. I very rarely pay attention to what they say, they have long been in bed with Trump and are famous for spewing right-wing disinformation. The rest of the msm has, if anything, a left-wing bias. Even NPR is not politically neutral, but what they report as fact is usually reliable.

By definition msm means the media people follow the most and Fox News is among the most followed ones. MSM shouldn't be trusted much and we should be critical and be aware of the narratives. Hardly any portion of msm has a left-wing bias. People just think that e.g. MSNBC is left-wing, but that is only because the Overton Window has moves so right. A real left wing outlet speaks positively about medicare for all and critically about the current for profit system. It is also good to keep in mind, that someone can be liberal/lefty on social issues, but conservative on economic issues - or vice versa!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 12:47:45 PM by 71 dB »
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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2908 on: September 06, 2021, 12:54:08 PM »
You are still being watched, being conscious of it is a good thing. Don't feel as though you are the only one though, everyone who posts in this thread gets equal attention. In my personal opinion, your rhetoric seems to be much more within your control than it was 6-10 months ago. This is a very good thing. Carry on...  $:)

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Offline 71 dB

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2909 on: September 06, 2021, 01:25:59 PM »
You are still being watched, being conscious of it is a good thing. Don't feel as though you are the only one though, everyone who posts in this thread gets equal attention. In my personal opinion, your rhetoric seems to be much more within your control than it was 6-10 months ago. This is a very good thing. Carry on...  $:)

8)

Thank you Gurn! It helps that I follow US politics these days much less religiously and I also try to concentrate more on my own life rather than problems on the other side of the planet. Also I understand nowadays better who I am (an INTJ/P) and who other people are. I understand better why people are different and think/sense/feel differently. That makes me more balanced which you apparently have noticed.  0:)
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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2910 on: September 06, 2021, 01:29:31 PM »
Thank you Gurn! It helps that I follow US politics these days much less religiously and I also try to concentrate more on my own life rather than problems on the other side of the planet. Also I understand nowadays better who I am (an INTJ/P) and who other people are. I understand better why people are different and think/sense/feel differently. That makes me more balanced which you apparently have noticed.  0:)

Very good.
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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2911 on: September 11, 2021, 04:36:10 PM »

Offline Fëanor

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2912 on: September 12, 2021, 06:09:33 AM »

No, no ... there's an obvious difference:  the Hezbollah guy has a beard.  :blank:

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2913 on: September 12, 2021, 10:26:09 AM »
No, no ... there's an obvious difference:  the Hezbollah guy has a beard.  :blank:

Also Hezbollah guy has more experience mismanaging a corrupt government.

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2914 on: September 12, 2021, 10:58:24 AM »
Also Hezbollah guy has more experience mismanaging a corrupt government.

Indeed. Where the corrupt (former) Prez manages Lindsey.
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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2915 on: September 12, 2021, 03:03:53 PM »

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2916 on: September 12, 2021, 09:38:54 PM »

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2917 on: September 13, 2021, 06:35:28 AM »


Yeah so Trump just didn't want to offend his supporters:  most of them believe 9/11 was a "false flag".  ::)

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2918 on: September 14, 2021, 08:19:08 AM »
Just been listening to some stunning news on CNN regarding information/research in the new Woodward/Costa book titled Peril.  I'm in shock!  Gen. Milley held a secret meeting due to concerns that he felt that Trump might go rogue.  Too much to write about it here.  Really want to read this book.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

PD

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Re: USA Politics (redux)
« Reply #2919 on: September 14, 2021, 09:39:13 AM »
Just been listening to some stunning news on CNN regarding information/research in the new Woodward/Costa book titled Peril.  I'm in shock!  Gen. Milley held a secret meeting due to concerns that he felt that Trump might go rogue.  Too much to write about it here.  Really want to read this book.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html

PD

Of course, the horrible fact is, we're not yet out of the woods.
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