USA Politics (redux)

Started by bhodges, November 10, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

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Karl Henning

Michigan school shooting suspect's parents held on $500,000 bond each as judge expresses flight-risk concerns

Acting on a tip, police found the pair hiding in a commercial building, authorities said
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

The pistol, purchased by James Crumbley on Nov. 26, was stored in an unlocked drawer in the parents' bedroom, according to officials.

A day before the fatal shooting, a teacher noticed Ethan Crumbley using his cellphone to search for information on firearm ammunition. Jennifer Crumbley did not respond when the school contacted her via voice mail about her son's "inappropriate" search, McDonald said. Instead, she exchanged a text message with her son that read, "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

milk

Quote from: Daverz on December 03, 2021, 01:31:14 PM
It's not complicated:

https://www.youtube.com/v/7ebPj_FqM5Q
How did that guy end up dying so young? This is a bad place to debate that issue but I don't buy that it's as simple as Brooks said. I AM wondering if people still feel a two-state solution is possible? Maybe that needs another thread. I honestly don't know so much about the issue. That the far-left has tried to make it about race is annoying.

JBS

Quote from: milk on December 04, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
How did that guy end up dying so young? This is a bad place to debate that issue but I don't buy that it's as simple as Brooks said. I AM wondering if people still feel a two-state solution is possible? Maybe that needs another thread. I honestly don't know so much about the issue. That the far-left has tried to make it about race is annoying.

It is not complicated if like Brooks you pretend that Palestinians are completely innocent people, ignoring the 20 years of violence (most of it attacking Arabs attacking Jews, not vice versa) that preceded 1948, the extremism and terrorism that have been the dominant voice in Palestinian discourse ever since 1948, the fact that what the great majority of Palestinians want is a state in which they don't have to live with Jews (the moderates are content with a two state solution, as long as one is only Palestinians)--that is, an apartheid ethnostate of the sort which antizionists claim to be against--and similar considerations.

Not all antizionists are antisemites, but almost all antisemites are antizionists because it provides a socially acceptable way of hating Jews.  And enough antizionists seem to think of the Jewish community in the West as merely an extension of "Zionism" and therefore legitimate targets of boycott and insult that antisemitism is a fair charge against them.

It should also be remembered that Western antizionism--which is based on a false version of Jewish history derived from Christian supersessionism and 19th century antisemitism--was developed by Soviet idealogues to give the USSR a way to influence Muslim countries and to justify persecution of Jews within the USSR. "The evil that men do lives on long after them" applies here.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Fëanor

Quote from: JBS on December 04, 2021, 05:54:21 PM
It is not complicated if like Brooks you pretend that Palestinians are completely innocent people, ignoring the 20 years of violence (most of it attacking Arabs attacking Jews, not vice versa) that preceded 1948, the extremism and terrorism that have been the dominant voice in Palestinian discourse ever since 1948, the fact that what the great majority of Palestinians want is a state in which they don't have to live with Jews (the moderates are content with a two state solution, as long as one is only Palestinians)--that is, an apartheid ethnostate of the sort which antizionists claim to be against--and similar considerations.

I'm afraid I'm hearing just standard, pro-Zionist apologetic for policies and actions of the Israeli state.

Granted, Palestinians by their own action have provided Israeli governments plenty of excuses to suppress them.  Palestinians have been stupid, by refusal to find compromises with Israel and amongst themselves, and restrain their own radicals.  But it's rare in historical situations that the deprived and disposed are totally saintly in their struggles, (not excluding Gandhi).

For their part, Palestinians broadly see Jewish settlement o Palestine, including today in the West Bank, as largely European neo-colonialism.  Of course that's not how Zionists see the situation but it's not an unreasonable assessment from a disinterested POV.


Quote from: JBS on December 04, 2021, 05:54:21 PM
Not all antizionists are antisemites, but almost all antisemites are antizionists because it provides a socially acceptable way of hating Jews.  And enough antizionists seem to think of the Jewish community in the West as merely an extension of "Zionism" and therefore legitimate targets of boycott and insult that antisemitism is a fair charge against them.

It should also be remembered that Western antizionism--which is based on a false version of Jewish history derived from Christian supersessionism and 19th century antisemitism--was developed by Soviet idealogues to give the USSR a way to influence Muslim countries and to justify persecution of Jews within the USSR. "The evil that men do lives on long after them" applies here.

But not all "anti-Zionism", (your term) -- more precisely criticism of the Israeli state, its policies and behaviors and those of segments of its Jewish population -- is anti-Semitism -- to imply such isn't a fair or logical basis to deflect criticism of Israeli behavior towards Palestinians.

Warning:  strawman.  Western criticism of Israel is not based on a false version of Jewish history -- it is based on the 20th century and current history of the Israeli state.

milk

Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 04:49:48 AM
I'm afraid I'm hearing just standard, pro-Zionist apologetic for policies and actions of the Israeli state.
I'm guessing the arguments from both sides are standard at this point. Does anyone have anything to say that hasn't already been said? That doesn't mean that I'm not interested because I always find the issue complicated and hard to follow. I'd like to see sides continue to make arguments here but I'm afraid it will be too off-topic. I have a hard time making my mind up about it. I think there is blame to go around. The sides seem more dug-in than ever. Gaza isn't controlled by a reasonable partner anymore anyway? I mean its not a democracy that can be engaged? I don't know. Lots of far-left types seem to reject two-state these days? They want something more radical?

Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 04:49:48 AM

For their part, Palestinians broadly see Jewish settlement o Palestine, including today in the West Bank, as largely European neo-colonialism.  Of course that's not how Zionists see the situation but it's not an unreasonable assessment from a disinterested POV.

I guess there are books on it but why do YOU see it that way? I mean leaving aside the agreements Israel has with the U.S., are the people of Israel European colonists? It doesn't seem so to me but, again, what do I know.

I can see why many people, some of them good friends, see Israel as belligerent. I can see why some people I know, some friends, see Israel in a different light.

JBS

Quote from: Fëanor on December 05, 2021, 04:49:48 AM

But not all "anti-Zionism", (your term) -- more precisely criticism of the Israeli state, its policies and behaviors and those of segments of its Jewish population -- is anti-Semitism -- to imply such isn't a fair or logical basis to deflect criticism of Israeli behavior towards Palestinians.

Warning:  strawman.  Western criticism of Israel is not based on a false version of Jewish history -- it is based on the 20th century and current history of the Israeli state.

Unfortunately Leftist antizionism is not any form of reasonable criticism of Israel and its policies. Leftist antizionism has adopted the extremist position that Jews have no legitimate connection what is now Israel/Palestine, are all Kahanists, that terrorism is moral and Hamas are heroic freedom fighters whose deviations from Western liberal ideals must be tolerated in the name of freeing Palestine. Even the relatively mild criticism of Palestinians which you expressed is more than most of them can manage.
And they cheer on people who openly say killing Jews is a good thing.
No change in Israeli policy will satisfy them because in their eyes the existence of Israel is an intrinsic wrong.

But the idea of Israelis being colonial settlers is straight out of Soviet ideology, no matter who voices it today, as is the idea that Jews are a religious community, not an ethnic group.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

amw

I feel like this topic may be more appropriate for a thread entitled "Israeli & Palestinian Politics" personally.

SimonNZ

Quote from: JBS on December 05, 2021, 05:27:18 PM
Unfortunately Leftist antizionism is not any form of reasonable criticism of Israel and its policies. Leftist antizionism has adopted the extremist position that Jews have no legitimate connection what is now Israel/Palestine, are all Kahanists, that terrorism is moral and Hamas are heroic freedom fighters whose deviations from Western liberal ideals must be tolerated in the name of freeing Palestine. Even the relatively mild criticism of Palestinians which you expressed is more than most of them can manage.
And they cheer on people who openly say killing Jews is a good thing.
No change in Israeli policy will satisfy them because in their eyes the existence of Israel is an intrinsic wrong.

But the idea of Israelis being colonial settlers is straight out of Soviet ideology, no matter who voices it today, as is the idea that Jews are a religious community, not an ethnic group.

Which "leftist antizionists" think all of this?

I'm really asking.

milk

Quote from: amw on December 05, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
I feel like this topic may be more appropriate for a thread entitled "Israeli & Palestinian Politics" personally.
probably so. I'm really interested in it but I think the topic will outwear its welcome. Maybe if it can be kept to a page or two and maybe if it can be brought back to how the topic affects and is affected by U.S. politics. It has come up before.
Quote from: SimonNZ on December 05, 2021, 08:28:01 PM
Which "leftist antizionists" think all of this?

I'm really asking.
I've met plenty of people with views like this. I don't know about "all." I work in an international setting and it's interesting what people say about this topic.

MusicTurner

#3330
Quote from: amw on December 05, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
I feel like this topic may be more appropriate for a thread entitled "Israeli & Palestinian Politics" personally.

Agree.

It's a rather separate field of, let's say frustrations, though the Israeli policy towards Palestinians gets the strongest outside support from circles in the US.

JBS

Quote from: SimonNZ on December 05, 2021, 08:28:01 PM
Which "leftist antizionists" think all of this?

I'm really asking.

In the context of US politics, the sort of people who  are active in DSA and Sunrise Movement.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Fëanor

Quote from: milk on December 05, 2021, 10:43:12 PM
Quote from: amw on December 05, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
I feel like this topic may be more appropriate for a thread entitled "Israeli & Palestinian Politics" personally.
probably so. I'm really interested in it but I think the topic will outwear its welcome. Maybe if it can be kept to a page or two and maybe if it can be brought back to how the topic affects and is affected by U.S. politics. It has come up before.
I've met plenty of people with views like this. I don't know about "all." I work in an international setting and it's interesting what people say about this topic.

Opps!! Are we quite ready to get on to the topic of US support for Israel and the reasons for that support?  ::)

It's a complex topic and drags up issues of pro-Zionist lobbying in the USA.

Fëanor

Quote from: JBS on December 05, 2021, 05:27:18 PM
Unfortunately Leftist antizionism is not any form of reasonable criticism of Israel and its policies. Leftist antizionism has adopted the extremist position that Jews have no legitimate connection what is now Israel/Palestine, are all Kahanists, that terrorism is moral and Hamas are heroic freedom fighters whose deviations from Western liberal ideals must be tolerated in the name of freeing Palestine. Even the relatively mild criticism of Palestinians which you expressed is more than most of them can manage.
And they cheer on people who openly say killing Jews is a good thing.
No change in Israeli policy will satisfy them because in their eyes the existence of Israel is an intrinsic wrong.

But the idea of Israelis being colonial settlers is straight out of Soviet ideology, no matter who voices it today, as is the idea that Jews are a religious community, not an ethnic group.

More flimsy, specious Zionist apologetics.

Q: Is Judaism religious or ethnic?  A: Yes.

Theodor Herzl conceived the Zionist movement at the height of European nationalist fervor:  there is implicit connection with that European phenomenon.

When a group of people from one continent decide to move to another with the intent of living there when the latter place is already occupied by another people who didn't invite and don't want them, it's call "colonialism".  E.g. when English settlers moved to what they called New England and the Carolinas it was contrary to the wishes of the natives of the place; that was colonialism and  founded places were call "colonies".  Antagonisms ensued between settlers and natives.

To suggest that a people who haven't dwelt in a place for almost 2000 years some how an historical, much less a religious, right to live there is patently ridiculous.

It's interesting to note that US sponsorship and support for Israel was & is far greater than British support ever ever was for the American colonists.

JBS

Quote from: Fëanor on December 06, 2021, 03:50:03 AM
More flimsy, specious Zionist apologetics.

Q: Is Judaism religious or ethnic?  A: Yes.

Theodor Herzl conceived the Zionist movement at the height of European nationalist fervor:  there is implicit connection with that European phenomenon.

When a group of people from one continent decide to move to another with the intent of living there when the latter place is already occupied by another people who didn't invite and don't want them, it's call "colonialism".  E.g. when English settlers moved to what they called New England and the Carolinas it was contrary to the wishes of the natives of the place; that was colonialism and  founded places were call "colonies".  Antagonisms ensued between settlers and natives.

To suggest that a people who haven't dwelt in a place for almost 2000 years some how an historical, much less a religious, right to live there is patently ridiculous.

It's interesting to note that US sponsorship and support for Israel was & is far greater than British support ever ever was for the American colonists.

There have been Jews in the Holy Land for over 3000 years.

By your logic, Cherokees have no right to live in Georgia because white people live there now.

For the sake of the forum, I'll shut up about this topic now.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

milk

Quote from: Fëanor on December 06, 2021, 03:50:03 AM
More flimsy, specious Zionist apologetics.

Q: Is Judaism religious or ethnic?  A: Yes.

Theodor Herzl conceived the Zionist movement at the height of European nationalist fervor:  there is implicit connection with that European phenomenon.

When a group of people from one continent decide to move to another with the intent of living there when the latter place is already occupied by another people who didn't invite and don't want them, it's call "colonialism".  E.g. when English settlers moved to what they called New England and the Carolinas it was contrary to the wishes of the natives of the place; that was colonialism and  founded places were call "colonies".  Antagonisms ensued between settlers and natives.

But most Israeli Jews aren't from another continent - not even by ethnicity. So that leaves a kind of philosophical connection. But aren't all modern countries influenced by ethnic nationalism - except for a few notable exceptions like the U.S. and Switzerland? Is the concept of Palestine free from "nationalistic fervor"? I honestly don't know. I expect you'll have an answer and someone else a counter-argument. I'm assuming the concept of a "Palestinian state" is as modern as nationalism-s and Israel as well? 

Karl Henning

Students have faced a huge jump in 'hostile behaviors,' a new report finds. Attacks with weapons doubled.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Fëanor

Quote from: JBS on December 06, 2021, 04:16:27 AM
There have been Jews in the Holy Land for over 3000 years.

By your logic, Cherokees have no right to live in Georgia because white people live there now.

For the sake of the forum, I'll shut up about this topic now.

Yes, there have been Jews in Palestine all that time and many other places in the Middle East too.  It's not the these native Jew or their descendants that comprise the vast majority of Israeli Jews today.  Jews lived relatively peacefully, (along with Christians and Yazidis), for most of that time;  expulsion Jews and these others from countries like Iraq are occurring today mostly on account of resentment towards Israel.

No, of course Cherokees ought not to have been forced out of Georgia;  same as Palestinians ought not to have been forced into exile from Palestine.  I think you got it backwards.

But I agree the discussion ought to below in another thread at least.

Fëanor

Quote from: milk on December 06, 2021, 04:35:22 AM
But most Israeli Jews aren't from another continent - not even by ethnicity. So that leaves a kind of philosophical connection. But aren't all modern countries influenced by ethnic nationalism - except for a few notable exceptions like the U.S. and Switzerland? Is the concept of Palestine free from "nationalistic fervor"? I honestly don't know. I expect you'll have an answer and someone else a counter-argument. I'm assuming the concept of a "Palestinian state" is as modern as nationalism-s and Israel as well?

The notion that Jews whose ancestors left the ME during the Roman Empire have some inherent claim to that region today is totally bogus.

The idea of a "Palestinian state" is no more or less artificial that the separate nationalisms of Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, et al.  The separate existences of these states today, as opposed to a  more all-inclusive Arab nation, is almost entirely the result of British and French imperialism.

I'm going to do my part to end this discussion here because it's mostly not about current US politics.

bhodges

Quote from: Fëanor on December 06, 2021, 07:22:38 AM
I'm going to do my part to end this discussion here because it's mostly not about current US politics.

Thank you.

--Bruce